Topic: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

I have now Pianoteq Standard.
Wonder if the expanded frequencies make any notable difference.
Maybe someone who experienced with both can tell?

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

hag01 wrote:

I have now Pianoteq Standard.
Wonder if the expanded frequencies make any notable difference.
Maybe someone who experienced with both can tell?

I don't have experience with both, but I have opinions. Before I tell you mine (and others do the same), I think you have to be very specific about what you mean with "notable difference". What is that you don't like or that you think it can be improved in PTQ? I have my opinions about that too and was shocked to find what the reasons were (look for another recent thread of mine about it).

Moreover, what do you use PTQ for? I think using it (say) for real time playing and listening to yourself is very different thing than using it for rendering MIDI files for cinematic reasons, especially if you (as many people do) further mix, edit or somewhat modify the sound later on in the audio chain

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

What I think could be improved is that maybe after the upgrade I'll say "Wow, I wouldn't think it could sound so good", like it some surprising improvement I can't think of right now, having Pianoteq Standard.

I have more experience with Pianoteq in live playing but I compose music, and hopefully Pianoteq can sit well in the mix if I'll use piano in some piece.
If I remember correctly I used Pianoteq at least once or twice in a DAW production.
Also used Pianoteq a lot to record myself playing live.

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

The main benefit of the Pro is the outstanding editing for each parameter you have in the panels per note. The sample rate doesn't change anything at all soundwise. It is just useful if somehow you're producing at higher sample rates.

Last edited by Chopin87 (28-11-2021 18:37)
"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

hag01 wrote:

What I think could be improved is that maybe after the upgrade I'll say "Wow, I wouldn't think it could sound so good", like it some surprising improvement I can't think of right now, having Pianoteq Standard.

I have more experience with Pianoteq in live playing but I compose music, and hopefully Pianoteq can sit well in the mix if I'll use piano in some piece.
If I remember correctly I used Pianoteq at least once or twice in a DAW production.
Also used Pianoteq a lot to record myself playing live.

My opinion is that you will not have that impression with the increase in frequency, unless you are very young and very sensitive to high frequency (which most male people are not, especially past their 20s or 30s), not to mention the response of your speakers or headphones. You can do the reverse and reduce the frequency in the options and see if it makes any difference to you. It almost doesn't for me. Where the increase in frequency may matter is if you are doing lots of edits in which higher frequency means "pushing" the digital noise to inaudible frequencies. For minimal editing and live playing it should not matter at all.

In my opinion the most important (and least used) setting for PTQ is available even in the Stage version and it is the velocity curve. I've just learned that minimal tweaking there cause massive difference in both touch and sound.

Back to to Pro version, I think it can be useful if you think you can improve one section of the compass (e.g. would like a brighter bass) without affecting a different section (e.g. you do not want a brighter high register). The note-by-note editing allows that and it's very nice to have, however it's very tedious and time consuming to do -- you can try that with a few parameters in the standard version. I wish there was an option to select only a handful of notes and have PTQ interpolate in between. Perhaps you could do that in Standard with layering? I have not tried.

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

Chopin87 wrote:

The main benefit of the Pro is the outstanding editing for each parameter you have in the panels per note. The sample rate doesn't change anything at all soundwise. It is just useful if somehow you're producing at higher sample rates.

I don't get this editing different parameters for different notes thing.
Like, if I'm playing with a certain piano model, I want a uniform sound for the piano, don't I?
What does it give me actually? That different keys sound like they are belong to different piano models? I don't want that...
Or maybe I don't get something here? I guess so, would like to get some explanations if possible please.

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

I used the standard Pianoteq version for a while before using Pianoteq pro. Pianoteq pro expanded frequencies does not make a noticeable difference in the quality of the sound. (96K versus 48K), on the other hand the CPU consumption is very notably increased with 96K and beyond.
For a professional project with a daw, expanded frequencies is undoubtedly justified by the standardization of the formats used throughout the effects chain. Although I personally use the 96K format, in standalone mode I very rarely got an improvement in sound compared to the 48K 32-bit format available in the standard version.
Pianoteq pro is in fact interesting especially for adjusting the settings of a piano note by note. (adjust, to be closer on a given key to the sound of the acoustic instrument than the instrument model proposed by Pianoteq, or on the contrary to deliberately move away from it)

Bruno

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

hag01 wrote:
Chopin87 wrote:

The main benefit of the Pro is the outstanding editing for each parameter you have in the panels per note. The sample rate doesn't change anything at all soundwise. It is just useful if somehow you're producing at higher sample rates.

I don't get this editing different parameters for different notes thing.
Like, if I'm playing with a certain piano model, I want a uniform sound for the piano, don't I?
What does it give me actually? That different keys sound like they are belong to different piano models? I don't want that...
Or maybe I don't get something here? I guess so, would like to get some explanations if possible please.

Not really. If a piano doesn't have small imbalances it sounds rather sterile. There is small variation in certain presets for hammer noise, tuning, unison imbalances, overtones, duplex scale, etc. In standard you can only change that globally (for the all keyboard range), in Pro you can edit per note and that has a major advantage. You hear a note you don't like? You can edit the profile spectrum. There is too much noise for the hammer release in a note? You can edit that as well. It becomes a major thing if you want control on the parameters of a piano which is not freshly tuned for performance but has taken quite a beating from the last tuning service, while the condition slider changes parameters under the hood and you don't have control over them, the PRO gives that control. Of course some patience and skill are required for designing the instrument you like once you have a rough idea on how to do it.
The pro version just gives you even more control on the details but weather that is something desirable it's up to you. I spent quite a few years with the Standard version before making the jump, just because I wanted to learn to customize with the options already there and eventually made the jump only when I needed more control over the same parameters. But as I said it is highly personal and that might not be the case for other people.

Last edited by Chopin87 (28-11-2021 20:29)
"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

hag01 wrote:
Chopin87 wrote:

The main benefit of the Pro is the outstanding editing for each parameter you have in the panels per note. The sample rate doesn't change anything at all soundwise. It is just useful if somehow you're producing at higher sample rates.

I don't get this editing different parameters for different notes thing.
Like, if I'm playing with a certain piano model, I want a uniform sound for the piano, don't I?
What does it give me actually? That different keys sound like they are belong to different piano models? I don't want that...
Or maybe I don't get something here? I guess so, would like to get some explanations if possible please.

Real pianos that are not new often have slight but noticeable changes from note to note, perhaps because some notes have been played much more often than others, and because of simple aging. These changes are not desirable, exactly, but they may give a sense of reality to the player, and may give the piano a unique character. They may affect composition and improvisation, as well--if one note has an upper partial that rings out a bit, it might combine with other notes in interesting ways, or produce a singing tone that fits well in some chords or melodies. Often, slightly different tunings of the unisons create this sense of realism and character--the strings go out of tune at different rates, so if we sit down at a piano with all of the unisons tuned exactly the same way, the sound may seem artificial, even if correct. A matter of the "uncanny valley" perhaps? Imperfections more closely resemble reality?

Last edited by Jake Johnson (07-12-2021 05:27)

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

Aliasing. Learn about it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jCwIsT0X8M&t=1520s
The guys in the topic here confuse you.
I've learnt about this from some good guy in Pianoteq forum as well. Good for good.

Last edited by Romariozen (07-12-2021 13:21)

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

I agree the note editing and tweaking features are what really makes Pro worth it at least for me anyway.

As Jake Johnson noted, real pianos are not perfect, and this is where we can make up for the perfect digital models we have. This is the nature of the beast with their wood, felt, and other materials all assembled more or less by hand even in the factories where there are CNC and robotics.

As pianos age, the parts wear in various ways. Bushings loosen up, making some hammers move quicker than others, hammer heads become firmer on some notes, little buzzes occur that add to the sound as part of the natural aging of the piano, and even a recently tuned older instrument can sound sweet and even warm compared to a brand new one.

A recently tuned instrument reminds me of a vase of cut flowers. The first day its fresh, but as time goes on there's a bit of fading and smoothing out of the colors and even that warmth about it that comes on as everything smooths out. It's this what we want to achieve and get away from the perfect digital world. Achieving what we want takes patience. I have spent many hours tweaking and poking with varied results. In most instances, I ended up deleting the files anyway after listening to them later.

Hint: If you make any changes, check them later. At first blush, we think they're superb because this is what our ears want to hear. Letting them sit there and going back later gives our ears and brain a break and allows us to hear them fresh and from an outside perspective. I also do the same thing with my recordings. I wait a day before I edit in order to let my ears hear the music rather than my brain replaying it as I thought it should sound. It's usually then that I decide whether to keep it or not, and usually end up deleting them.

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

jcitron wrote:

I agree the note editing and tweaking features are what really makes Pro worth it at least for me anyway.

As Jake Johnson noted, real pianos are not perfect, and this is where we can make up for the perfect digital models we have. This is the nature of the beast with their wood, felt, and other materials all assembled more or less by hand even in the factories where there are CNC and robotics.

As pianos age, the parts wear in various ways. Bushings loosen up, making some hammers move quicker than others, hammer heads become firmer on some notes, little buzzes occur that add to the sound as part of the natural aging of the piano, and even a recently tuned older instrument can sound sweet and even warm compared to a brand new one.

A recently tuned instrument reminds me of a vase of cut flowers. The first day its fresh, but as time goes on there's a bit of fading and smoothing out of the colors and even that warmth about it that comes on as everything smooths out. It's this what we want to achieve and get away from the perfect digital world. Achieving what we want takes patience. I have spent many hours tweaking and poking with varied results. In most instances, I ended up deleting the files anyway after listening to them later.

Hint: If you make any changes, check them later. At first blush, we think they're superb because this is what our ears want to hear. Letting them sit there and going back later gives our ears and brain a break and allows us to hear them fresh and from an outside perspective. I also do the same thing with my recordings. I wait a day before I edit in order to let my ears hear the music rather than my brain replaying it as I thought it should sound. It's usually then that I decide whether to keep it or not, and usually end up deleting them.


Do you know that pianoteq piano's presets have also their notes tweaked?

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

Romariozen wrote:
jcitron wrote:

I agree the note editing and tweaking features are what really makes Pro worth it at least for me anyway.

As Jake Johnson noted, real pianos are not perfect, and this is where we can make up for the perfect digital models we have. This is the nature of the beast with their wood, felt, and other materials all assembled more or less by hand even in the factories where there are CNC and robotics.

As pianos age, the parts wear in various ways. Bushings loosen up, making some hammers move quicker than others, hammer heads become firmer on some notes, little buzzes occur that add to the sound as part of the natural aging of the piano, and even a recently tuned older instrument can sound sweet and even warm compared to a brand new one.

A recently tuned instrument reminds me of a vase of cut flowers. The first day its fresh, but as time goes on there's a bit of fading and smoothing out of the colors and even that warmth about it that comes on as everything smooths out. It's this what we want to achieve and get away from the perfect digital world. Achieving what we want takes patience. I have spent many hours tweaking and poking with varied results. In most instances, I ended up deleting the files anyway after listening to them later.

Hint: If you make any changes, check them later. At first blush, we think they're superb because this is what our ears want to hear. Letting them sit there and going back later gives our ears and brain a break and allows us to hear them fresh and from an outside perspective. I also do the same thing with my recordings. I wait a day before I edit in order to let my ears hear the music rather than my brain replaying it as I thought it should sound. It's usually then that I decide whether to keep it or not, and usually end up deleting them.


Do you know that pianoteq piano's presets have also their notes tweaked?

I didn't know that.If that's the case, that may explain my poor ability to come up with something decent.

Re: Pianoteq Pro - Supports up to 192 kHz

jcitron wrote:
Romariozen wrote:
jcitron wrote:

I agree the note editing and tweaking features are what really makes Pro worth it at least for me anyway.

As Jake Johnson noted, real pianos are not perfect, and this is where we can make up for the perfect digital models we have. This is the nature of the beast with their wood, felt, and other materials all assembled more or less by hand even in the factories where there are CNC and robotics.

As pianos age, the parts wear in various ways. Bushings loosen up, making some hammers move quicker than others, hammer heads become firmer on some notes, little buzzes occur that add to the sound as part of the natural aging of the piano, and even a recently tuned older instrument can sound sweet and even warm compared to a brand new one.

A recently tuned instrument reminds me of a vase of cut flowers. The first day its fresh, but as time goes on there's a bit of fading and smoothing out of the colors and even that warmth about it that comes on as everything smooths out. It's this what we want to achieve and get away from the perfect digital world. Achieving what we want takes patience. I have spent many hours tweaking and poking with varied results. In most instances, I ended up deleting the files anyway after listening to them later.

Hint: If you make any changes, check them later. At first blush, we think they're superb because this is what our ears want to hear. Letting them sit there and going back later gives our ears and brain a break and allows us to hear them fresh and from an outside perspective. I also do the same thing with my recordings. I wait a day before I edit in order to let my ears hear the music rather than my brain replaying it as I thought it should sound. It's usually then that I decide whether to keep it or not, and usually end up deleting them.


Do you know that pianoteq piano's presets have also their notes tweaked?

I didn't know that.If that's the case, that may explain my poor ability to come up with something decent.


That's  ok, I't sometimes really hard to notice that, esp. for some expensive piano presets. Bechstein in fact has a lot of happy excidents through the piano keyboard.