Topic by Beto-Music

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Topic: Steinway rising prices along decades.

I was just watching one more video about Steinway & Sons pianos, but this time I got surprised about how prices raised so much fromv 60's to nowadays :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mnquWUItsVM

    Ok, there is the inflation and the fact sitka spruce became more rare, but even so something tells me these two factors combined it's not enough to a piano became 13 times more expensive.

   Other thing that puzzles me it's about the 15 degree tolerante to wood rain direction. Well, for me at leads, looking the diagram in the vídeo, 15 degree lotes like too much tolerance. I wonder if this was a mistake from the vídeo editor.

Last edited by Beto-Music (05-12-2021 02:41)

Reply by Zumadale

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Re: Steinway rising prices along decades.

Price didnt go up... the value of our money has decreased.

You can still get a gallon of gas if you have 3 silver dimes.

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Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Steinway rising prices along decades.

Zumadale wrote:

Price didnt go up... the value of our money has decreased.

You can still get a gallon of gas if you have 3 silver dimes.

Considering inflation  - a quick Google search:
"Value of $1 from 1960 to 2021
The dollar had an average inflation rate of 3.73% per year between 1960 and today, producing a cumulative price increase of 834.42%."

Between the 1960s and today Steinway's market dominance grew too. Along with their considerable (and clever) marketing.
They are on something like 95% of the classical piano recordings, it's ridiculous!

Reply by budo

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Re: Steinway rising prices along decades.

i am not an economist and really don't much of anything about it.  but there's no law against speculation i hope.  one thing that stands out to me as a culprit is labor costs.  there is so much hand-effort in making a top-line grand piano that i don't see how the process could be made cheaper by economy of scale.  it's not like they're stamping them out in some factory like cheap plastic widgets.

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Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Steinway rising prices along decades.

budo wrote:

i am not an economist and really don't much of anything about it.  but there's no law against speculation i hope.  one thing that stands out to me as a culprit is labor costs.  there is so much hand-effort in making a top-line grand piano that i don't see how the process could be made cheaper by economy of scale.  it's not like they're stamping them out in some factory like cheap plastic widgets.

There certainly will be substantial differences in economies of scale, even though little or none of this will be mass production in the way we understand it today with assembly lines and robots.
All of them will be labour intensive. Be of no doubt though there will be huge cost differences between these different factories processes, their material buying power, and efficiency therein. 

Steinway's factories making  2600 pianos per annum will have very different facilities to another that barely manages to produce pianos in single figures.
Bosendorfer (although owned by Yamaha) apparently makes only 300 pianos per annum. I'm sure Steinway's processes will be very substantially more efficient than theirs, for now. 
The factories producing pianos in far greater numbers in China will have much lower costs than Steinway. I'm sure the very best of those would be impressive pianos. I'm sure they could make a truly high end model to compete with the best Japanese efforts, and of course those would be the most labour intensive, most expensively and slowly created models.

As far as I am are aware no pianos are made in Tesla style fully automated factories. If the market remains big enough that could become possible within the biggest Chinese factories within decades with AI. What a weird combination that would be!

Last edited by Key Fumbler (07-12-2021 10:45)

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: Steinway rising prices along decades.

I was told that Yamaha uses more industrial patterns to produce its pianos than its synths... A piano model doesn't change that fast ;-)

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Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Steinway rising prices along decades.

Luc Henrion wrote:

I was told that Yamaha uses more industrial patterns to produce its pianos than its synths... A piano model doesn't change that fast ;-)

I think that has become part of their enduring appeal, to those few that can afford them. Products not belonging to the throwaway society - something highly conservative. Something old and classic, something relatively unchanging. At the same time they were machines born out of innovation. They are hardware as much as furniture, and yet a statement of wealth and taste.

I have seen piano shops attempting to make the green argument - no electricity required, serviceable instead of throwaway. This is a joke, it can only apply to vintage models, nothing new.
The materials and energy used to make and ship one grand piano is enormous compared to a lifetime of MIDI keyboards sound systems and electricity.

Reply by jcitron

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Re: Steinway rising prices along decades.

A piano teacher and I were talking about this one day quite a number of years ago. He has a Steinway D that he got rebuilt sometime in the 1970s. The piano then cost him $4,100. Yes, $4 grand! The same piano today is in the $50K range. even in the 1980s, Steinway grands were always expensive, but not as crazy as they are today.

Not counting inflation, what is the reason? It's a Steinway. Steinway is a name that even non piano owners know, and the wealthiest of the wealthy have to own one. They also consider these an investment like fine wine and other things to buy and keep. The sad part is hardly any of these people are pianists or have a real interest in music. These people are instead very wealthy, investors, doctors, lawyers and others that must have a Steinway above all other models.

These pianos aren't played like we would play them. The pianos instead become features as part of their decor because they look pretty in front of the big picture window. If the pianos are played at all, they're played maybe by the kids for a few lessons, and then occasionally during social gatherings and holidays. In most of the homes I visited, the pianos sat there with the lid closed up and covered with family pictures and other junk. In others, the lid is permanently left up on the prop stick so that it looks impressive. I mentioned to one of the owners that it's not good to do that all the time because the lid will warp. The answer I got was: "Tell that to my wife. She does the decorating around here".

Sad.

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: Steinway rising prices along decades.

jcitron wrote:

A piano teacher and I were talking about this one day quite a number of years ago. He has a Steinway D that he got rebuilt sometime in the 1970s. The piano then cost him $4,100. Yes, $4 grand! The same piano today is in the $50K range. even in the 1980s, Steinway grands were always expensive, but not as crazy as they are today.

Not counting inflation, what is the reason? It's a Steinway. Steinway is a name that even non piano owners know, and the wealthiest of the wealthy have to own one. They also consider these an investment like fine wine and other things to buy and keep. The sad part is hardly any of these people are pianists or have a real interest in music. These people are instead very wealthy, investors, doctors, lawyers and others that must have a Steinway above all other models.

These pianos aren't played like we would play them. The pianos instead become features as part of their decor because they look pretty in front of the big picture window. If the pianos are played at all, they're played maybe by the kids for a few lessons, and then occasionally during social gatherings and holidays. In most of the homes I visited, the pianos sat there with the lid closed up and covered with family pictures and other junk. In others, the lid is permanently left up on the prop stick so that it looks impressive. I mentioned to one of the owners that it's not good to do that all the time because the lid will warp. The answer I got was: "Tell that to my wife. She does the decorating around here".

Sad.

It's no different to most super/hyper cars. Status symbols and/or investments, anything but tools to actually use!

Anyone that has seen a few videos from Robert Estrin's YT channel will probably have come across several examples of apparently pristine (barely touched/as new/no sign of wear) grand pianos that are sometimes 40-50 yrs old. Barely does the tech have to touch the thing, bar the spit and polish!
Makes you wonder why new Chinese pianos sell in EU/UK/US at all!

Then there are various DAW forum members I can recall over the years that have admitted they can't be bothered to use their real grand pianos most of the time. They just use their VST's because of the convenience.

Reply by jcitron

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Re: Steinway rising prices along decades.

Key Fumbler wrote:
jcitron wrote:

A piano teacher and I were talking about this one day quite a number of years ago. He has a Steinway D that he got rebuilt sometime in the 1970s. The piano then cost him $4,100. Yes, $4 grand! The same piano today is in the $50K range. even in the 1980s, Steinway grands were always expensive, but not as crazy as they are today.

Not counting inflation, what is the reason? It's a Steinway. Steinway is a name that even non piano owners know, and the wealthiest of the wealthy have to own one. They also consider these an investment like fine wine and other things to buy and keep. The sad part is hardly any of these people are pianists or have a real interest in music. These people are instead very wealthy, investors, doctors, lawyers and others that must have a Steinway above all other models.

These pianos aren't played like we would play them. The pianos instead become features as part of their decor because they look pretty in front of the big picture window. If the pianos are played at all, they're played maybe by the kids for a few lessons, and then occasionally during social gatherings and holidays. In most of the homes I visited, the pianos sat there with the lid closed up and covered with family pictures and other junk. In others, the lid is permanently left up on the prop stick so that it looks impressive. I mentioned to one of the owners that it's not good to do that all the time because the lid will warp. The answer I got was: "Tell that to my wife. She does the decorating around here".

Sad.

It's no different to most super/hyper cars. Status symbols and/or investments, anything but tools to actually use!

Anyone that has seen a few videos from Robert Estrin's YT channel will probably have come across several examples of apparently pristine (barely touched/as new/no sign of wear) grand pianos that are sometimes 40-50 yrs old. Barely does the tech have to touch the thing, bar the spit and polish!
Makes you wonder why new Chinese pianos sell in EU/UK/US at all!

Then there are various DAW forum members I can recall over the years that have admitted they can't be bothered to use their real grand pianos most of the time. They just use their VST's because of the convenience.

Yup it sure is.

The pianos I saw appeared as you noted were completely untouched. I spoke with a long-retired piano tech friend about this and he said the dealer would do the necessary first tuning, but nothing else to the piano because they knew they would never get a call again. This is most likely what Robert found.

Pianos themselves sadly no longer have the status symbol and place in the home they used to. The Chinese market aims at the lower end cheap commodity type instruments for those that want their child to take lessons while the upper end they're used for status.

While the intention is good, the inexpensive PSO objects themselves have a lot to be desired. This is true also of some of the instruments from Eastern Europe. I know because I foolishly purchased a Belarussian made console. The instrument sounded great for about a year then slowly fell apart piece by piece. I sold it to someone for about what I paid for it and used that towards my then brand-new Technics SX/PX 665 that last me for 15 years before I retired that for my Roland LX-17. In 2005, I did invest in my Vogel 177T which I still have today, and it still sounds nearly as good as it did when I purchased it.

In my house, both instruments are played. The grand is played during the day when my elder father isn't napping, and the digital is used during the other times unless I'm recording something. My clavichord is being rebuilt currently and my small Italian Virginal is played occasionally. This is the difference between someone who loves music and uses the instruments for what they're supposed to be for.