Topic: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

I would like to hear from anybody who has experience with such a setup. I am interested in purchasing an acoustic piano, probably an upright (for space reasons, at least), and of course it should be equipped with a sensor/midi system to allow connection to a computer and Pianoteq. In theory, the Yamaha "silent piano 2" system should work, because it has a midi out connector.

I think Kawai has a similar system?   Alternatively, there are systems that can be retrofitted to a normal acoustic piano, but I suspect that a good installation could be tricky. Any info appreciated!

Last edited by aWc (05-11-2021 01:52)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

I've used Pianoteq with various silent pianos - predominantly Kawai and Yamaha instruments.

It works very well, although I've only used Pianoteq in this way through headphones - never back through a Transacoustic or Aures system. One of the biggest things is getting the velocity curve right - each manufacturer seems to handle MIDI output totally differently, so you'll end up with vastly different velocity curves depending on the instrument.

Also bear in mind that acoustic piano actions are VERY noisy, so you'll need to be able to have Pianoteq cranked up volume wise for it to make sense!

Re: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

aWc wrote:

I would like to hear from anybody who has experience with such a setup. I am interested in purchasing an acoustic piano, probably an upright (for space reasons, at least), and of course it should be equipped with a sensor/midi system to allow connection to a computer and Pianoteq. In theory, the Yamaha "silent piano 2" system should work, because it has a midi out connector.

I think Kawai has a similar system?   Alternatively, there are systems that can be retrofitted to a normal acoustic piano, but I suspect that a good installation could be tricky. Any info appreciated!

Kawai does have a similar system, IIRC it's called ATX. AFAIK, both Kawai and Yamaha use key sensors for their acoustic-silent. The choice of key sensors has some drawbacks, because hammers and keys are not completely linked to each other (that's the whole point of the escapement) and so "guessing" the hammer velocity from the key velocity is just that: a guess, even though it could be good enough for most purposes. For example, see the well documented "loud note" problem and this discussion about its fix causing other gripes: https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/179-yama...er-problem (even though that discussion is about the NU1x, I think the Yamaha acoustic silents use a very similar if not identical hw/sw). So before you shell out the money, make sure you very accurately test that the instrument responds in a way that's satisfactory to you. FWIW, I have an NU1 (without the firmware fix mentioned in the above thread), and it works very well for me, on its own and especially with Pianoteq -- however I am using it less than I used to and so it's now for sale.

Alternatively, if you have time/stamina, you can embark in a project like this one: https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/163-buil...the-action which I am also working on (with a grand action, this time, as you can see in the follow-up thread linked toward the end of this one). This circles us back to the initial discussion about hammer vs keyboard sensors. Since acoustic pianos have strings, hammer sensors are a bit more tricky (but not impossible) to install, whereas for hybrids is just a design choice. These DIY hybrid always use both hammer and key sensors, since the best approach is to have both and it's not a big deal to do so in such a project.

HTH

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Re: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

I have a Yamaha C6 grand with an aftermarket Adsilent system installed.  The built-in sound is terrible (though it is a Pianoteq modeled Steingraeber sound that is very low quality due to the weak chip it's installed on.)  So I do use USB out to a MacBook running Pianoteq.

It works flawlessly after calibration.  However, it was a several thousand dollar retrofit and really isn't better than my VPC-1 Pianoteq set-up.

Re: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

thanks guys, lots of interesting info from you three.

I understand  that a fitted acoustic piano won't be better at controlling Pianoteq than a very good MIDI controller (and conceivably worse!). However, the idea is to be able to enjoy the feel and sound of a good acoustic piano while retaining the recording/ midi editing capability, plus of course all the things Pianoteq does, all that  using  a single instrument. But the silent piano option is only one way right? (no acoustic playback).

To take things further, could a Diskclavier or similar acoustic piano recording AND playback  system work seamlessly with  Pianoteq and/or a MIDI sequencer like Logic? I mean: you record from the acoustic piano to Pianoteq or Logic and playback directly on the acoustic? Not even sure Diskclavier has a MIDI input...

Last edited by aWc (09-11-2021 04:08)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

AlphaTerminus wrote:

I have a Yamaha C6 grand with an aftermarket Adsilent system installed.  The built-in sound is terrible (though it is a Pianoteq modeled Steingraeber sound that is very low quality due to the weak chip it's installed on.)  So I do use USB out to a MacBook running Pianoteq.

It works flawlessly after calibration.  However, it was a several thousand dollar retrofit and really isn't better than my VPC-1 Pianoteq set-up.

Hi,
I have also an adSilent system installed on my upright.
Is your setup really flawless ? Mine is okay but sometimes I get some inconsistencies with velocity values.
Also, when repeating a note quickly, it can output high velocity errors (=127) on some hits, similar to the reported "NU1 issue".
Finally, how did you manage to have the "Steingraeber" edition as this one is sold exclusively with brand new Steingraeber pianos (info confirmed by the adSilent system owner himself) ?
Thank you !

Re: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

aWc wrote:

thanks guys, lots of interesting info from you three.

I understand  that a fitted acoustic piano won't be better at controlling Pianoteq than a very good MIDI controller (and conceivably worse!). However, the idea is to be able to enjoy the feel and sound of a good acoustic piano while retaining the recording/ midi editing capability, plus of course all the things Pianoteq does, all that  using  a single instrument. But the silent piano option is only one way right? (no acoustic playback).

To take things further, could a Diskclavier or similar acoustic piano recording AND playback  system work seamlessly with  Pianoteq and/or a MIDI sequencer like Logic? I mean: you record from the acoustic piano to Pianoteq or Logic and playback directly on the acoustic? Not even sure Diskclavier has a MIDI input...

In case you are interested in, I have setup my own "DIY transacoustic", thanks to simple transducers sticked on the soundboard of my upright piano. It works really well, with quite impressive basses and full midrange tones :

https://www.pianomajeur.net/forum/viewt...ic#p413858

Re: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

Très intéressant, merci d'avoir partagé!

Finally, my wife and I finally decided to buy an upright (W. Hoffman, made by Bechstein in the Czech Republic)...but without their Vario system (their brand of "silent piano" option). The piano is really fantastic, but they had one in the store with the Vario installed and it seemed to be tricky to adjust so as not to interfere with the action of the keys. We decided to keep our Pianoteq setup separate from the acoustic...for now. But this transacoustics thing seem very promising for outputting Pianoteq into it. Probably not with our brand new Hoffman, but I have also an old upright in the basement that is waiting for a new life


Paulo164 wrote:

In case you are interested in, I have setup my own "DIY transacoustic", thanks to simple transducers sticked on the soundboard of my upright piano. It works really well, with quite impressive basses and full midrange tones :

https://www.pianomajeur.net/forum/viewt...ic#p413858

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

aWc wrote:

Très intéressant, merci d'avoir partagé!

Finally, my wife and I finally decided to buy an upright (W. Hoffman, made by Bechstein in the Czech Republic)...but without their Vario system (their brand of "silent piano" option). The piano is really fantastic, but they had one in the store with the Vario installed and it seemed to be tricky to adjust so as not to interfere with the action of the keys. We decided to keep our Pianoteq setup separate from the acoustic...for now. But this transacoustics thing seem very promising for outputting Pianoteq into it. Probably not with our brand new Hoffman, but I have also an old upright in the basement that is waiting for a new life


Paulo164 wrote:

In case you are interested in, I have setup my own "DIY transacoustic", thanks to simple transducers sticked on the soundboard of my upright piano. It works really well, with quite impressive basses and full midrange tones :

https://www.pianomajeur.net/forum/viewt...ic#p413858

Cool news for your Hofffman, congratulations !

Re: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

Excellent!  How are the 'stuck-on' transducers holding up?

- David

Re: Controlling Pianoteq with a Yamaha U3 with "silent mode" or similar

dklein wrote:

Excellent!  How are the 'stuck-on' transducers holding up?

Transducers are sold with an adhesive tape on it. So you just have to remove the protection and make contact with the soundboard. Before sticking, you need to make sure that you have determined the best (= most resonating) place on the soundboard, otherwise it will be hard to unstick. It's been more than a year from now and the transducers don't show any sign of loosening.