Topic: phase issues, mic placement and mono compatibility

Hi all - I'm new here, and new to Pianoteq. Sorry if this post is a bit technical.

I'm an audio engineer/musician looking into why digital/software pianos sound good in headphones but sometimes fall apart in live settings. I've traced the problem to poor mono-compatibility of the stereo output: wave interference and phase cancellation can distort the timbre in live play, where L and R channels always mix down to mono to some extent (especially with the highly directional horn loudspeakers used in live sound).

Many people have recommended Pianoteq as being better at this. So, today I used a phase correlation meter to make measurements of the Pianoteq 7 Stage demo. It's better than my Yamaha CP50 digital, but there are still some notes that suffer from phase cancellation.

You can find my Pianoteq measurements at the bottom of this post:
http://rtaylor.sites.tru.ca/2021/07/14/...-issues-3/

The worst note is F5, for which L and R signals have large negative correlation -- a sure sign of poor mono-compatibility. A spectral analysis shows this is because the 698Hz fundamental has L and R channels nearly out of phase. So, on mix-down to mono the fundamental basically drops out, leaving the higher harmonics to dominate the timbre. I hear this note as sounding different from adjacent notes, with distinctly lower volume. Not bad, just inconsistent with the timbre of the whole instrument. As expected, this effect completely disappears in headphones.

I wonder if others can hear this? It certainly helps to know what to listen for; the notes with the worst phase issues are F5, B4 and D#5. To hear the effect most consistently, it helps to disable the reverb and set the velocity curve to a constant level.

My interest in Pianoteq is that it's possible to tweak the mic positions to correct phase problems. What are the default mic positions for Pianoteq 7 Stage? This doesn't seem to be documented anywhere. I would assume this has been optimized carefully, but my measurements indicate otherwise.

I don't mean to criticize Pianoteq here; it's fiendishly difficult to get this right, and Pianoteq seems to do better than most. But I'm very keen to improve realism in live-play situations. Correcting the obvious phase issues seems like low-hanging fruit.

Richard

Last edited by sr2taylo (12-08-2021 17:42)

Re: phase issues, mic placement and mono compatibility

If you want to find the microphone positions to any Stage preset, I suggest a free standard download is available to show the placement of the mics.

About phase cancelations I’ve often wondered with PIANOTEQ piano layering; it’s a possible solution if you can take a preset utilizing two microphones (a stereo pair) and break it down into two (2) distinct layers, with each emphasizing only half its piano keyboard and the other half completely silenced by the software Volume parameter control which permits individual note and note range volume adjustments.  One layer —half your piano— might have its own note range and adjacent microphone resulting essentially in a mono signal that you can combine with the other half of the piano in the other layer and its miked note range.

You may want to experiment as it can work, theoretically.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: phase issues, mic placement and mono compatibility

Welcome Richard to this forum, and thank you for this very interesting comparison.

The cross-correlation that you measured withing Pianoteq was related to a given instrument/preset (which one?), and will of course vary significantly from one instrument/preset to another. In Pianoteq Standard, as mentioned by  Amen Ptah Ra, you have access to the microphones types and position. A straightforward way of increasing the cross-correlation towards 1, in a preset equipped with two omni mics, is to set them closer to each other. At the limit, when they are superposed, the cross-correlation will be almost one (not exactly one if you have some effects like delays and reverb).

Re: phase issues, mic placement and mono compatibility

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

The cross-correlation that you measured within Pianoteq was related to a given instrument/preset (which one?)

I ran Pianoteq 7 Stage out-of-the-box without any tweaks except to disable reverb and set a constant velocity curve. I gather this is the Steinway D Prelude instrument pack, but I don't know what the mic locations are in that preset.

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

A straightforward way of increasing the cross-correlation towards 1... is to set [the mics] closer to each other

True. The stereo output would then be dual-mono: guaranteed to preserve mono compatibility and avoid phase issues. But sounds a bit lifeless. Low cross-correlation (close to 0 but not negative) is central to creating the illusions of "spaciousness" and "acoustic source width" but doesn't cause audible phase issues, so it's worth preserving.

A question that's been bothering me: why use stereo at all? It has inherent phase problems, with every possible set of mic positions making a different compromise, so why not just use mono for live performance?

One answer is that pianos are big so their sound field is complicated; no single mic can capture a truly representative sample. The piano-in-a-room sound is a blend of signals radiated in many different directions, reflected by room boundaries back to the listener. Recreating that experience would seem to require playing back mic signals captured at many different (virtual) locations. Two is the minimum, hence stereo.

Plus stereo playback systems are ubiquitous. But I suspect that Pianoteq's multi-channel option might be a way to create the realism I've been missing in live situations.

Re: phase issues, mic placement and mono compatibility

sr2taylo wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:

The cross-correlation that you measured within Pianoteq was related to a given instrument/preset (which one?)

I ran Pianoteq 7 Stage out-of-the-box without any tweaks except to disable reverb and set a constant velocity curve. I gather this is the Steinway D Prelude instrument pack, but I don't know what the mic locations are in that preset.

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

A straightforward way of increasing the cross-correlation towards 1... is to set [the mics] closer to each other

True. The stereo output would then be dual-mono: guaranteed to preserve mono compatibility and avoid phase issues. But sounds a bit lifeless. Low cross-correlation (close to 0 but not negative) is central to creating the illusions of "spaciousness" and "acoustic source width" but doesn't cause audible phase issues, so it's worth preserving.

A question that's been bothering me: why use stereo at all? It has inherent phase problems, with every possible set of mic positions making a different compromise, so why not just use mono for live performance?

One answer is that pianos are big so their sound field is complicated; no single mic can capture a truly representative sample. The piano-in-a-room sound is a blend of signals radiated in many different directions, reflected by room boundaries back to the listener. Recreating that experience would seem to require playing back mic signals captured at many different (virtual) locations. Two is the minimum, hence stereo.

I agree with you. If ever you come to a mic setting that you like particularly, please do not hesitate sharing it in the fxp corner.

Re: phase issues, mic placement and mono compatibility

In the "real life", I have recorded many, many, many pianos and the only microphone configuration I still use is the "ORTF" pair: a pair of cardio mics (not omni) spaced 17 cm apart and forming a 110° angle. The position of the pair is of paramount importance.  I tried to reproduce this in Pianoteq but, strangely, I still don't get a perfect result...  Would you try it too?

Re: phase issues, mic placement and mono compatibility

Adding two cents to this. Richard, indeed a real piano in a room has its sound reflected off the different surfaces. But whichever way you cut it, listeners have (a maximum of) two ears, to pick up all the complexity. That's the reason the ORTF mic practice Luc suggested works so well, it most closely imitates the way our ears work.

One thing to consider, that I expect might be related to the results both of you have been getting in your tests, is that the microphone placement modeling in PianoTeq seems to take place in an infinite/anechoic space. Meaning the microphones are only picking up the sound of the piano directly, unlike in an actual room where the sound also reflects off of all the surfaces, all those reflections eventually converging at the mics (or the listeners ears).

At least that's what the manual seems to suggest to me. Though it doesn't say so explicitly, it's implied when it recommends against turning off the reverb. My ears do sometimes feel like they're picking up room reflections even with the reverb turned off, but maybe the realism of the physical modeling is playing tricks on me. Perhaps Philippe can verify this? It would be interesting to know.

The alternative would be to have a physically modeled room with reflections for the microphones to pick up. Strictly speaking this would be a more realistic way to model a miked piano. My intuition is, however, that miking a piano in a completely anechoic space and applying reverb to the stereo recording can give just as satisfying results as modeling room reflections going into the mics.

Reverb does indeed become crucial though. Did you use reverb for your ORTF tests Luc? If not, that might explain your results not being satisfactory, a real life ORTF recording always has at least some room reflections in it. I suspect the type and amount of reverb would have to be dialed in ny ear to match the microphone placement. I'll try this out later and see what results I can get.



And as for the phase correlation issue, the reverb might influence that too, the time-frequency smearing could even out phase issues by adding complexity to the sound. That's also what happens when playing the sound through speakers into a room of course, the frequencies bouncing around the room and possibly arriving at your ears at different times and from various directions... this certainly explains this result you got Richard: "Perceptually, all of this is quite subtle."

I was initially surprised by that sentence, I would expect the opposite of "quite subtle" when reading nearly -1 on a correlation meter! But then I remembered what the meter is doing, and realized that it's measuring something that we never actually intend to hear. The measurement only represents reality directly if we sum the left and right channels into a single speaker. I expect if we actually did that we wouldn't describe the resulting differences in timbre as subtle.
Not saying this is not an issue at all, but I suspect that other factors play a bigger role in making electric pianos sound bad live. Not all sound systems are made equal... This is of course assuming the engineer is competent enough to realize that the piano channels needs to be hard-panned left-right. Without that there's sure to be problems.


Thanks for the food for thought!