Topic: Some strangeness with unisons, and a feature request or two

A problem, to me: If we universally detune the unisons, the lowest notes, which should be created by striking single strings, are detuned as though they are duplexes or trichords. The way around this may seem simple--just tune the unisons one-by-one in the Note edit page for this parameter, avoiding the universal slider. But a question arises: If the low note unison strings behave as though they are duplexes or trichords, doesn't this affect their sound in normal playing, before they are detuned further, or with other adjustments, such as using the Aging slider? (Or does the Unison Detune only detune the single string on one-string notes? If so, is that correct--should the user expect that low notes will be detuned when adjusting the Unison slider?)

A feature request: The ability to change the amplitude of each string in the unisons. Because hammers wear and because the head or shaft may shift slightly over time, the strike point and angle across the width of unisons changes over time, so that some of the unison strings are hit more firmly than others. This, to me, is part of an older piano's tone--the combination of detuned unisons, with the unisons having slightly different amplitudes. The effect can be that the "sourness" of the detuned strings is heard, but not as prominently as the correctly tuned strings. Over time, of course, the situation can change, as more of the strings fall out of tune, or as the detuned strings sound louder than the correctly-pitched strings. May seem like a minor change, but I think the effect on the sound, if we could change the amplitude of each string individually, could be enormous, and for the better in achieving still more realism, since this would model the behavior of a real, imperfect piano.

An interface request: It would be nice to see which notes are made up of single strings, duplexes, and trichords, since the break points vary from one piano to another. Not sure where this would go. On the Mics page? Possibly as an overlay that can be called for the left hand panel, if that panel could be zoomed in on? Perhaps on another page that doesn't yet exist, which would simply show the piano from above or from the player's perspective, hiding all or most of the parameters? (A page that could be called or removed by a single keypress.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (03-08-2021 15:27)

Re: Some strangeness with unisons, and a feature request or two

Excellent observation, I had never looked closely at this feature. By increasing the unison width you can hear the sound of two strings very well even in the low notes, which is not logical. The question is whether in the standard position 1.00 the sound of the low strings emits two frequencies or not. The slider goes from 0 to 20 (0 no width and 20 maximum width) so the 1.00 position has a certain width even for the low strings which is not normal I think.

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Re: Some strangeness with unisons, and a feature request or two

Jake Johnson wrote:

A problem, to me: If we universally detune the unisons, the lowest notes, which should be created by striking single strings, are detuned as though they are duplexes or trichords.

This is not the case for the Steinways, nor for any of the other contemporary grands (strike for example the lowes C, MIDI #24 where there is usuallay one single string), nor for the U4..., which pianos are you referring to?

Re: Some strangeness with unisons, and a feature request or two

Philippe Guillaume wrote:
Jake Johnson wrote:

A problem, to me: If we universally detune the unisons, the lowest notes, which should be created by striking single strings, are detuned as though they are duplexes or trichords.

This is not the case for the Steinways, nor for any of the other contemporary grands (strike for example the lowes C, MIDI #24 where there is usuallay one single string), nor for the U4..., which pianos are you referring to?

Well, using the NY Steinway D Prelude, play the lowest F, hold it and let it die. Then move the Unison detune slider all the way to the right and play that same F and hold it. I seem to hear the effect of the detuned unisons on this monochord. To hear it more distinctly, move the Unison detune slider all the way to the left and play that F, and then move the slider all the way to the right and play the note. I'm hearing something there. (Or going mad, which may be the case.) I haven't tried this on every piano, however.

Re: Some strangeness with unisons, and a feature request or two

Mea culpa, I thought there were more unicordal notes in the low register on grand pianos. The unicordal notes are well spared by the unison width.

Re: Some strangeness with unisons, and a feature request or two

Jake Johnson wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:
Jake Johnson wrote:

A problem, to me: If we universally detune the unisons, the lowest notes, which should be created by striking single strings, are detuned as though they are duplexes or trichords.

This is not the case for the Steinways, nor for any of the other contemporary grands (strike for example the lowes C, MIDI #24 where there is usuallay one single string), nor for the U4..., which pianos are you referring to?

Well, using the NY Steinway D Prelude, play the lowest F, hold it and let it die. Then move the Unison detune slider all the way to the right and play that same F and hold it. I seem to hear the effect of the detuned unisons on this monochord. To hear it more distinctly, move the Unison detune slider all the way to the left and play that F, and then move the slider all the way to the right and play the note. I'm hearing something there. (Or going mad, which may be the case.) I haven't tried this on every piano, however.

Indeed, on Steinway D, the lowest F is the first note with double wound strings (and then second Bb is the first note with triple strings). On each piano, we respected the stringing plan.

Re: Some strangeness with unisons, and a feature request or two

Philippe Guillaume wrote:
Jake Johnson wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:

This is not the case for the Steinways, nor for any of the other contemporary grands (strike for example the lowes C, MIDI #24 where there is usuallay one single string), nor for the U4..., which pianos are you referring to?

Well, using the NY Steinway D Prelude, play the lowest F, hold it and let it die. Then move the Unison detune slider all the way to the right and play that same F and hold it. I seem to hear the effect of the detuned unisons on this monochord. To hear it more distinctly, move the Unison detune slider all the way to the left and play that F, and then move the slider all the way to the right and play the note. I'm hearing something there. (Or going mad, which may be the case.) I haven't tried this on every piano, however.

Indeed, on Steinway D, the lowest F is the first note with double wound strings (and then second Bb is the first note with triple strings). On each piano, we respected the stringing plan.


Yikes. Sorry about that. I too would have obviously sworn that the monochords extended further up. My apologies. Now, about being able to change the amplitude of each string...

Re: Some strangeness with unisons, and a feature request or two

Jake Johnson wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:
Jake Johnson wrote:

Well, using the NY Steinway D Prelude, play the lowest F, hold it and let it die. Then move the Unison detune slider all the way to the right and play that same F and hold it. I seem to hear the effect of the detuned unisons on this monochord. To hear it more distinctly, move the Unison detune slider all the way to the left and play that F, and then move the slider all the way to the right and play the note. I'm hearing something there. (Or going mad, which may be the case.) I haven't tried this on every piano, however.

Indeed, on Steinway D, the lowest F is the first note with double wound strings (and then second Bb is the first note with triple strings). On each piano, we respected the stringing plan.


Yikes. Sorry about that. I too would have obviously sworn that the monochords extended further up. My apologies. Now, about being able to change the amplitude of each string...

Regarding being able to change the amplitude of each string, although there is currently no direct control in the UI, this is something you can partially achieve via the "Direct duration" slider, which modifies the relative amplitudes of the modes in double and tri-choirs.

Re: Some strangeness with unisons, and a feature request or two

Wow. Loving the control over the sound now allowed by the Direct Duration pane. I had experimented with it earlier, before the sound was split into two modes. Now the effect is very different, completely changing the timbre of the decay as well as, of course, the relative length of the direct strike and the decays.

But it would still be nice to be able to control the relative amplitude of each string, emulating the changes in hammer shape or wear or position and angle over time. And to see the break points :-)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (04-08-2021 17:05)