Topic: Note off velocity

Hi all!

Why as a default Note-off velocity curve is flat (no matter how slow you release a key you'll get 127)?

Does not almost every decent keyboard nowadays send 1-127 values of note off velocity and PTQ (should) respond to that as well?

Just curious here....

thx,
P

Re: Note off velocity

A similar question came up a while ago and it made me think about note-off velocity, which I hadn't considered before. Not all keyboards transmit note-off but many do. It's easy to check if yours does by watching the vertical bars which appear as you play (in the note-off window). If the bars come up in different positions you have a variable note-off keyboard and can adjust your note-off velocity curve to take advantage of it.

With my Roland FP-30 I set it like this: Note-Off Velocity = [0, 41, 127; 5, 41, 127] . I set the minimum velocity to 5 because a '0' setting can sometimes sound as if the piano's dampers are defective!

Last edited by dazric (20-07-2021 15:03)

Re: Note off velocity

dazric wrote:

A similar question came up a while ago and it made me think about note-off velocity, which I hadn't considered before. Not all keyboards transmit note-off but many do. It's easy to check if yours does by watching the vertical bars which appear as you play (in the note-off window). If the bars come up in different positions you have a variable note-off keyboard and can adjust your note-off velocity curve to take advantage of it.

With my Roland FP-30 I set it like this: Note-Off Velocity = [0, 41, 127; 5, 41, 127] . I set the minimum velocity to 5 because a '0' setting can sometimes sound as if the piano's dampers are defective!

I have couple of MIDI keyboards and all of them send note off values (1-127). My question was WHY Pianoteq is by default set to ignore this? And also if you adjust it to send off values from 1 to 127 how does PTQ react to that?

Re: Note off velocity

Interesting.
I've never had a stuck note with Pianoteq, for me that's probably unique, whether standalone or VST versions of virtual instruments. So whatever they're doing they are doing it right!

Stuck notes seem to be a very serious problem with MIDI.

Re: Note off velocity

Ecaroh wrote:

I have couple of MIDI keyboards and all of them send note off values (1-127). My question was WHY Pianoteq is by default set to ignore this? And also if you adjust it to send off values from 1 to 127 how does PTQ react to that?

I wondered the very same thing about the 127 default, which seems way too aggressive to me (I have a keyboard with fixed note-off which transmits 64). Modartt are presumably allowing for keyboards that don't have variable note-off, but even so I think they should add some presets such as 'Normal keyboard with note-off' as starting points for many recent DPs. I do recommend adjusting your note-off velocity curve. The difference is subtle, but a noticeable improvement in realism (more piano-like behaviour).

@ Key Fumbler: Stuck notes? Are you responding to a topic in another thread?

Re: Note off velocity

I have grappled with this myself and haven't gotten too far:  I have a QRS PNOscan II laser key reading bar, which I believe should have variable note-off capability, but I've not figured out how to set it to do such.

Variable Note-off is of greatest effect with soft slow pieces, where slow re-engagement of the damper can produce 'rounded ends' to each note.  It adds a subtlety which again differentiates such an equipped keyboard and VST from most others, making them sound more 'real', and adding variation to the character of each note.  In speedy loud pieces, however, variable note-off would be unnoticed, I believe.

Even better would be tying the return of the damper to the strings with each key connected to Aftertouch, which would allow you to re-engage the dampers as fast or slow as you want for each and every key, essentially recreating the technique of "key-pedalling" for each note, rather than using your foot on the sustain pedal.

Comparing MIDI functions to real instruments becomes the difficult:  For each keypress, MIDI sends a "Note on" command, initiating the sound process.  The key velocity during Note-on is detected, and used to modify the resultant sound.  The return of the key to the upright position then initiates Note "Off", which returns the dampers to the strings and brings about the end of the note.  The velocity of the key as it passes through the note-off detector sets the shapes of the end of the note by electronically setting the rate of damper reengagement.  If Note-Off is not variable, then the VST designer chooses a re-engagement rate for the dampers, and each note is muffled at the same rate.

Even better would be to mate the Aftertouch function to the dampers on a VST piano, rather than to the tone itself, as is commonly done with Aftertouch in synthesizers, etc.  This is because in a real piano, once the hammer is 'thrown' by the action, there is nothing else that the piano player can do to change hammerstrike.  But, if aftertouch is linked to damper position, in essentially the same way that the sustain pedal functions, then you can have variable damping of the played tone, and even some off-and-on damping as the note rings out, if you raise and lower the key subtly as the note resonates.  This would mimic what happens in a real piano, as each keypress serves not only to throw the hammer for hammerstrike, but also to control the damper as if you have 88 separate sustain pedals, one for each note.

- David

Re: Note off velocity

dazric wrote:

@ Key Fumbler: Stuck notes? Are you responding to a topic in another thread?

No, this one. I wonder if it is related, that's why I bring it up.

Surely stuck MIDI notes are related to how note off signals are handled or mishandled?

Re: Note off velocity

Key Fumbler wrote:

Surely stuck MIDI notes are related to how note off signals are handled or mishandled?

I see your point. If you had a faulty keyboard, or a note-off event was deleted during editing, then you might get stuck notes. There may be other factors coming in to play, but it would need an expert in the field of midi data to give you more details. When I got my 'piano with defective dampers' effect, the note-offs were still being transmitted, but they were not always quite strong enough to fully damp the notes (because of the note-off curve setting).

Re: Note off velocity

dazric wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Surely stuck MIDI notes are related to how note off signals are handled or mishandled?

I see your point. If you had a faulty keyboard, or a note-off event was deleted during editing, then you might get stuck notes. There may be other factors coming in to play, but it would need an expert in the field of midi data to give you more details. When I got my 'piano with defective dampers' effect, the note-offs were still being transmitted, but they were not always quite strong enough to fully damp the notes (because of the note-off curve setting).

Are you ONLY using Pianoteq?
Have you perhaps never used any other MIDI before either?

No no,  this is a well recognised issue for MIDI and MIDI instruments, not faulty units, not just keyboards, all of them - keyboards, wind controllers, MPE..
What's more it's not exclusive to any specific DAWs, controllers, stand alone software synths..

Just Google stuck MIDI notes for the multitude of discussions and solutions over decades. It's not discussions about faulty hardware at all.

Re: Note off velocity

Many, many keyboards do not send note-off messages. They send note-on at value 0. Pianoteq converts that into note-off messages. In those keyboards, silent notes are note-on at value 1. If a VST is unprepared to deal with note-on=0 not being a silent note but a end of note event, then all sort of problems may occur...

Last edited by Vagporto (22-07-2021 20:11)

Re: Note off velocity

Well, maybe I'm just lucky. I mainly use Pianoteq but not exclusively. The midi problems I've experienced over the years were mostly to do with latency and audio glitching rather than stuck notes. Aaagh, the endless hours of head-scratching I've had trying to solve those problems. I think if I'd had stuck notes as well I might have given up on computer audio altogether!

Re: Note off velocity

dazric wrote:

Well, maybe I'm just lucky. I mainly use Pianoteq but not exclusively. The midi problems I've experienced over the years were mostly to do with latency and audio glitching rather than stuck notes. Aaagh, the endless hours of head-scratching I've had trying to solve those problems. I think if I'd had stuck notes as well I might have given up on computer audio altogether!

On my main machine never had any latency issues at all, or audio glitches. I know it's different on the less powerful systems  (and poorly optimised systems) though. Those are common issues for folks too.

If for instance you were to say only program all the other sounds (with mouse and qwerty) but played Pianoteq with your keyboards I could see a situation where you wouldn't ever experience stuck MIDI notes.