Topic by Gnusmas

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Topic: A possible Modartt 3D panning effect plugin

Hey guys,
Although I don't visit the forums very often, I am a really heavy user of Pianoteq since version 5.  I'm thinking of the possibility of a universal 3D-panning plugin which can be Pianoteq-compatible, basically an optional full piano model and several (maybe tens of) point sound sources (with or without radiation direction patterns) captured by microphones available in Pianoteq, along with Pianoteq's reverb or custom impulses.  I often record pieces for the piano and orchestra with physical modelling MIDI instruments, and currently use an external reverb and some spatial panning strategies, but it's kind of a difficult thing to do correctly with Pianoteq.  This potential 3D panning tool would make the most out of the advantage of Pianoteq's sophisticated piano and spatial model while retaining a (logically and practically) homogeneous space impression.  Anyone relating to this?

Last edited by Gnusmas (15-04-2021 05:09)

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: A possible Modartt 3D panning effect plugin

It might be cool if a later version of Pianoteq could use 3D graphics for the microphone room section and a model of each instrument, this utilising GPU instead of CPU rendering. This could be optional, with the ability to flip back to the standard 2D graphics we have now as the 3D graphics option could be seen as an unwanted distraction by some.
If however for some reason this introduced significant latency then it wouldn't be worth it.

I suggest the graphics would want to be plain bold walls, like old fashioned VR 3d symbolic graphics rather than a fully faked virtual room with windows, curtains, carpets and light through window, or sources from the ceiling and so on.

Perhaps this is a problem because the room size would then be a factor in what has to be visually rendered?
So for instance if you pick a hall then the room has to expand over the representation of the smaller Jazz room. If you reduce the hall size then the model reduces too?

Should the hall show seating?
What shape is "a hall" anyway?
Right now it is left to the imagination, perhaps it is better that way?

Last edited by Key Fumbler (14-04-2021 23:28)

Reply by Gnusmas

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Re: A possible Modartt 3D panning effect plugin

Key Fumbler wrote:

It might be cool if a later version of Pianoteq could use 3D graphics for the microphone room section and a model of each instrument, this utilising GPU instead of CPU rendering. This could be optional, with the ability to flip back to the standard 2D graphics we have now as the 3D graphics option could be seen as an unwanted distraction by some.
If however for some reason this introduced significant latency then it wouldn't be worth it.

I suggest the graphics would want to be plain bold walls, like old fashioned VR 3d symbolic graphics rather than a fully faked virtual room with windows, curtains, carpets and light through window, or sources from the ceiling and so on.

3D graphics is a cool idea, but would possibly end up with more distraction than we imagine.  A purely technical display like the top and front views may provide more accurate information, appropriate for the case of Pianoteq.

Key Fumbler wrote:

Perhaps this is a problem because the room size would then be a factor in what has to be visually rendered?
So for instance if you pick a hall then the room has to expand over the representation of the smaller Jazz room. If you reduce the hall size then the model reduces too?

Should the hall show seating?
What shape is "a hall" anyway?
Right now it is left to the imagination, perhaps it is better that way?

Showing the wall could help avoid producing overly fake space setting, like a 30-metre-apart stereo source pair in a small drum room.  In addition, this should be independent of the current stereo width slider.



What's more, my point is that it will be nice and useful if there is an independent effect plugin which extracts the sound radiation model in Pianoteq for other point sound sources or source pairs like orchestral instruments.

Last edited by Gnusmas (15-04-2021 05:11)

Reply by Key Fumbler

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Re: A possible Modartt 3D panning effect plugin

Gnusmas wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

It might be cool if a later version of Pianoteq could use 3D graphics for the microphone room section and a model of each instrument, this utilising GPU instead of CPU rendering. This could be optional, with the ability to flip back to the standard 2D graphics we have now as the 3D graphics option could be seen as an unwanted distraction by some.
If however for some reason this introduced significant latency then it wouldn't be worth it.

I suggest the graphics would want to be plain bold walls, like old fashioned VR 3d symbolic graphics rather than a fully faked virtual room with windows, curtains, carpets and light through window, or sources from the ceiling and so on.

3D graphics is a cool idea, but would possibly end up with more distraction than we imagine.  A purely technical display like the top and front views may provide more accurate information, appropriate for the case of Pianoteq.

Key Fumbler wrote:

Perhaps this is a problem because the room size would then be a factor in what has to be visually rendered?
So for instance if you pick a hall then the room has to expand over the representation of the smaller Jazz room. If you reduce the hall size then the model reduces too?

Should the hall show seating?
What shape is "a hall" anyway?
Right now it is left to the imagination, perhaps it is better that way?

Showing the wall could help avoid producing overly fake space setting, like a 30-metre-apart stereo source pair in a small drum room.  In addition, this should be independent of the current stereo width slider.

What's more, my point is that it will be nice and useful if there is an independent effect plugin which extracts the sound radiation model in Pianoteq for other point sound sources or source pairs like orchestral instruments.

I have always assumed that the room reverb type and size in the FX section is just the final effect in the FX chain and thus currently not really part of the microphone room calculation at all. That it was up to us to choose an appropriate impulse response and settings to fit the microphone model.
So whether we use the internal or external reverb didn't really make any difference, so long as it is appropriate, or sounds good.

OTOH for arguments sake if you were to place those Pianoteq virtual microphones in a hall model with all your other virtual instruments then the calculations required go through the roof I imagine. You would get unwanted real world type problems with the piano microphones picking up other instruments.

Reply by Amen Ptah Ra

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Re: A possible Modartt 3D panning effect plugin

Personally I use VirtualSoundStage 2.0, since it can allow me to move my modelled instrument —including any PIANOTEQ piano— into whatever position on a virtual stage I would like to record:


Opera House

https://www.parallax-audio.com/images/ui_large.png
This is now whether I’m choosing a concert hall setting for either an ensemble or full orchestra performance (depicted above)...


Recording Studio

https://www.parallax-audio.com/images/room_studio.jpg
...or even one considered more intimate, such like a recording studio to record today some really progressive jazz!


I particularly like it because it can allow me to take into consideration coordinates from PIANOTEQ microphones, specifically the measurements (those along virtual x axis, y axis. and z axis placements) about and from any of my own instrument presets, and later virtually reconstruct the piano (dimensions included) outside, that is outside the PIANOTEQ interface however onto any of this particular software’s virtual stages  —and indeed accurately to within a small centimeter inside of VirtualSoundStage 2.0.

(Although, I personally prefer inches as often they’re also convenient.)  (Laugh.)

Furthermore, it permits within it control of DIRECTIVITY and AIR ABSORPTION (that is) emitted from or taken in by any PIANOTEQ preset, and, by which of course I always can adjust further once inside of PIANOTEQ itself via its own very similar Sound speed parameter.

You get —if you want— a copy VirtualSoundStage 2.0 to demo from parallax-audio.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (29-06-2021 18:44)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Reply by Gnusmas

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Re: A possible Modartt 3D panning effect plugin

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

Personally I use VirtualSoundStage 2.0, since it can allow me to move my modelled instrument —including any PIANOTEQ piano— into whatever position on a virtual stage I would like to record:


Opera House

https://www.parallax-audio.com/images/ui_large.png
This is now whether I’m choosing a concert hall setting for either an ensemble or full orchestra performance (depicted above)...


Recording Studio

https://www.parallax-audio.com/images/room_studio.jpg
...or even one considered more intimate, such like a recording studio to record today some really progressive jazz!


I particularly like it because it can allow me to take into consideration coordinates from PIANOTEQ microphones, specifically the measurements (those along virtual x axis, y axis. and z axis placements) about and from any of my own instrument presets, and later virtually reconstruct the piano (dimensions included) outside, that is outside the PIANOTEQ interface however onto any of this particular software’s virtual stages  —and indeed accurately to within a small centimeter inside of VirtualSoundStage 2.0.

(Although, I personally prefer inches as often they’re also convenient.)  (Laugh.)

Furthermore, it permits within it control of DIRECTIVITY and AIR ABSORPTION (that is) emitted from or taken in by any PIANOTEQ preset, and, by which of course I always can adjust further once inside of PIANOTEQ itself via its own very similar Sound speed parameter.

You get —if you want— a copy VirtualSoundStage 2.0 to demo from parallax-audio.

Thanks for sharing.  I'd been using it for quite a while a few years ago.  My point is that if Modartt could release its own 3D panning tool, it would be a very good competitor in the market, provided the existing performance of spatial possibilities in Pianoteq.