Topic: Historic Piano Collection

http://www.finchcocks.co.uk/collection.html

Re: Historic Piano Collection

I'm sure, when the Covid saga is over, it will be well worth visiting. There have been some changes, can't remember when/why, and I notice the Erard 1846 - or 1849, can't remember -  is missing. When I visited some years' ago, the Erard and Pleyel were alongside each other and it was fascinating to compare them, when playing Chopin. (I preferred the Erard and love the Pianoteq 1849 Erard)

Re: Historic Piano Collection

sandalholme wrote:

I'm sure, when the Covid saga is over, it will be well worth visiting. There have been some changes, can't remember when/why, and I notice the Erard 1846 - or 1849, can't remember -  is missing. When I visited some years' ago, the Erard and Pleyel were alongside each other and it was fascinating to compare them, when playing Chopin. (I preferred the Erard and love the Pianoteq 1849 Erard)

There are two Kremsegg collections:
https://www.modartt.com/kremsegg1
https://www.modartt.com/kremsegg2

Re: Historic Piano Collection

Somehow, we were luckly... If covid-19 had happened in the 80's, whithout genetic sequencing of viruz, without ability to fast develop vaccines, without fast test and trackinf of new strains by DNA, and with international flying already in flux to create a similar pattern of spreading like today, we would be in far worse situation.

But we are way abusing of this lucky, underestimating the risks.

There is a viruz much more deadly and with potential to be the next pandemic. I hope humanity learn with the actual pandemic, to do not get in a catasthopic scenery in the next one.

Up to 75% of death rate : https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2021...t-pandemic

Last edited by Beto-Music (27-01-2021 23:35)

Re: Historic Piano Collection

Oh, I did not know about this... looks very interesting and thanks for the notification.

Re: Historic Piano Collection

This is a substantial collection of historic keyboard instruments and hopefully they can open up once COVID-19 has subsided. I have heard concerts on instruments from this collection in the past.

Located in the US in Massachusetts is the Frederick Historic Piano Collection www.frederickcollection.org. This is a private collection that has been made available to the public, and comprises an active collection of about 24 pianos ranging from a small 5-octave fortepiano to a large Erard Extra-Grand. All of these instruments are playable by those that wish to do so, or the visitor can enjoy a tour and demonstrations by the owners and curators of these instruments. In addition to private tours, the museum also offers reasonably priced concerts.

Part of the premise around the collection is to hear the music of the various composers as they would have heard at the time their works were composed and published. Beethoven, for example, would have played the 1790-95 fortepiano, or perhaps a piano similar to the 1805-1810 Casper Katholnig. Haydn and Beethoven owned Broadwood pianos from the same period, therefore the collection's Clementi from 1800-1805 is suitable for Clementi, Beethoven, Haydn, Ries, and others from the same period.

Being only 65 miles, roughly 100 km, from my house, I have visited this awesome collection a number of times and at one point piano-sat for the Fredericks when they were out of town on museum open-days. The collection is like opening up a big box of chocolates because each instrument has its own unique sound with variations in various parts of the keyboard compass.

With the COVID-19 restrictions lifting and my own vaccination finalizing this week, I look forward to the road trip 65 miles west and spending the day exploring and enjoying these pianos once again.

Last edited by jcitron (25-05-2021 05:59)

Re: Historic Piano Collection

If I remamber well someone had posted the link to this collection many months ago. Or maybe they get new models.  Very interesting again.

This Blüthner 1977 have crossed strings. I wonder how such old piano & still modern design sound today compared to actual Bluthners grand pianos. http://www.frederickcollection.org/Bluth1877.htm

What parameter Modartt should use when choosing a old piano to model for a vintage collection? If it's old but sound too modern, is it still appropriated? Or would it still have a nice old feeling and at same time with quality modern pianists wish?
I personally think a "old & modern" it's fine. The piano people loved the most among the 8 instruments of Kremesegg collection was the C. Bechstein 1899 (crossed strings).

For other side, I wonder what straight strung grand piano (vintage of course) it's the closest to modern piano, just to get somithing similar to Barenboim piano.

To finish: Why Steinway pianos are so rare in all vintage piano collections???


jcitron wrote:

This is a substantial collection of historic keyboard instruments and hopefully they can open up once COVID-19 has subsided. I have heard concerts on instruments from this collection in the past.

Located in the US in Massachusetts is the Frederick Historic Piano Collection www.frederickcollection.org. This is a private collection that has been made available to the public, and comprises an active collection of about 24 pianos ranging from a small 5-octave fortepiano to a large Erard Extra-Grand. All of these instruments are playable by those that wish to do so, or the visitor can enjoy a tour and demonstrations by the owners and curators of these instruments. In addition to private tours, the museum also offers reasonably priced concerts.

Part of the premise around the collection is to hear the music of the various composers as they would have heard at the time their works were composed and published. Beethoven, for example, would have played the 1790-95 fortepiano, or perhaps a piano similar to the 1805-1810 Casper Katholnig. Haydn and Beethoven owned Broadwood pianos from the same period, therefore the collection's Clementi from 1800-1805 is suitable for Clementi, Beethoven, Haydn, Ries, and others from the same period.

Being only 65 miles, roughly 100 km, from my house, I have visited this awesome collection a number of times and at one point piano-sat for the Fredericks when they were out of town on museum open-days. The collection is like opening up a big box of chocolates because each instrument has its own unique sound with variations in various parts of the keyboard compass.

With the COVID-19 restrictions lifting and my own vaccination finalizing this week, I look forward to the road trip 65 miles west and spending the day exploring and enjoying these pianos once again.

Last edited by Beto-Music (25-05-2021 22:31)

Re: Historic Piano Collection

It was I who posted a link previously. Chickering, Steinway, and others also offered cross-strung pianos. The purpose wasn't to increase the length, but instead it's used to increase the power because the metal plate kills the power of the piano as the plate strengthens the piano at the same time. This isn't saying that there aren't straight strung pianos with metal plates either. String crossing started in the mid-19th century and Erard sold both versions. What I have done is alter the duplex (cross-stringing) value in Pianoteq 7 to suit my needs for the antique Viennese pianos since these instruments don't have that feature. I found I can't remove the duplex completely, but I reduce it down a lot.

What parameter for Modartt to use? That's a tough one. Historically, most pianos from 1858 onward are modern. These pianos generally have all the features, if you can call them that, when looking at the English-French-American designed pianos. They have the felt hammers, over-damper system, and metal plates. I was told by Mr. Frederick that if we were to transport a piano technician from 1870 to modern times, he could easily repair and tune a modern piano.

With that said, I would say Modartt could pick any piano they wish that was built before 1940. After 1940, piano designs were altered to make pianos louder and more percussive because of radio and later television, and because pianos were now placed in larger and larger concert halls and arenas.

I agree, the old-modern are fine. That 1877 Blüthner is a beautiful piano and so is its cousin the 1907 concert grand. These pianos, unlike modern instruments, have a large dynamic range where one can achieve the softest pianississimo to the loudest fortissimo. These instruments also have a different character in the different parts of the keyboard, which gives them a different timbre and tone that's not found on modern pianos. We can thank piano technicians for this because they went through great lengths to homogenize the piano sound in order to smooth out the differences between the sections of the keyboard.

Why does the collection only have one Steinway? We would need to ask Mr. and Mrs. Frederick about this, but my suspicion is they chose the various pianos to best represent the different style instruments and periods. They also chose instruments for their uniqueness. In the collection is their 1871 Streicher. This instrument is from the same series that Brahms' piano came from. The 1829-1830 Ignaz Bösendorfer, is signed by Ignaz Bösendorfer himself. And finally, the Casper Katholnig from 1805-1810 period was chosen by J N Hummel while he as at the Esterhazy castle in Austria. He was there at the same time Beethoven was, which makes this piano amazing.

There are other unique provenances associated with other pianos in the collection, but these are the ones I can remember.



Beto-Music wrote:

If I remamber well someone had posted the link to this collection many months ago. Or maybe they get new models.  Very interesting again.

This Blüthner 1977 have crossed strings. I wonder how such old piano & still modern design sound today compared to actual Bluthners grand pianos. http://www.frederickcollection.org/Bluth1877.htm

What parameter Modartt should use when choosing a old piano to model for a vintage collection? If it's old but sound too modern, is it still appropriated? Or would it still have a nice old feeling and at same time with quality modern pianists wish?
I personally think a "old & modern" it's fine. The piano people loved the most among the 8 instruments of Kremesegg collection was the C. Bechstein 1899 (crossed strings).

For other side, I wonder what straight strung grand piano (vintage of course) it's the closest to modern piano, just to get somithing similar to Barenboim piano.

To finish: Why Steinway pianos are so rare in all vintage piano collections???

jcitron wrote:

This is a substantial collection of historic keyboard instruments and hopefully they can open up once COVID-19 has subsided. I have heard concerts on instruments from this collection in the past.

Located in the US in Massachusetts is the Frederick Historic Piano Collection www.frederickcollection.org. This is a private collection that has been made available to the public, and comprises an active collection of about 24 pianos ranging from a small 5-octave fortepiano to a large Erard Extra-Grand. All of these instruments are playable by those that wish to do so, or the visitor can enjoy a tour and demonstrations by the owners and curators of these instruments. In addition to private tours, the museum also offers reasonably priced concerts.

Part of the premise around the collection is to hear the music of the various composers as they would have heard at the time their works were composed and published. Beethoven, for example, would have played the 1790-95 fortepiano, or perhaps a piano similar to the 1805-1810 Casper Katholnig. Haydn and Beethoven owned Broadwood pianos from the same period, therefore the collection's Clementi from 1800-1805 is suitable for Clementi, Beethoven, Haydn, Ries, and others from the same period.

Being only 65 miles, roughly 100 km, from my house, I have visited this awesome collection a number of times and at one point piano-sat for the Fredericks when they were out of town on museum open-days. The collection is like opening up a big box of chocolates because each instrument has its own unique sound with variations in various parts of the keyboard compass.

With the COVID-19 restrictions lifting and my own vaccination finalizing this week, I look forward to the road trip 65 miles west and spending the day exploring and enjoying these pianos once again.

Re: Historic Piano Collection

jcitron wrote:

..What I have done is alter the duplex (cross-stringing) value in Pianoteq 7 to suit my needs for the antique Viennese pianos since these instruments don't have that feature.

Maybe I have this wrong, but my understanding of the Duplex Scale has to do with the short, non-damped, strings located at the heel of the main, damped strings that resonate freely to add emphasis to the higher overtones. On my p515 by Yamaha they call this Aliquot Resonance. You can see them in the DESIGN
illustration window graphic you click to open up the parameter settings panel on the right.

Re: Historic Piano Collection

Smilie wrote:
jcitron wrote:

..What I have done is alter the duplex (cross-stringing) value in Pianoteq 7 to suit my needs for the antique Viennese pianos since these instruments don't have that feature.

Maybe I have this wrong, but my understanding of the Duplex Scale has to do with the short, non-damped, strings located at the heel of the main, damped strings that resonate freely to add emphasis to the higher overtones. On my p515 by Yamaha they call this Aliquot Resonance. You can see them in the DESIGN
illustration window graphic you click to open up the parameter settings panel on the right.

You are correct on this. I've gotten the terminology mixed up! What makes that confusing is Blüthner uses Aliquot for its extra strings in the upper treble. Their grand pianos have an extra non-tunable string that adds some extra stuff to the upper end of the piano.

With that said, I must play around with the parameter in the opposite direction and see what that does since the early instruments are much thinner strung up in that end and are more resonant. Hmmm...

Thank you for point that out.

Re: Historic Piano Collection

jcitron wrote:

I've gotten the terminology mixed up! What makes that confusing is Blüthner uses Aliquot for its extra strings in the upper treble. Their grand pianos have an extra non-tunable string that adds some extra stuff to the upper end of the piano.

With that said, I must play around with the parameter in the opposite direction and see what that does since the early instruments are much thinner strung up in that end and are more resonant.

It is confusing, isn't it? I knew nothing of this before buying the p515 and wondering: "What is this 'Aliquot' setting?" In fact, since buying and experimenting with PianoTeq I am learning more about the technical side. Hitherto, I was just concerned with playing them as best I could being self-taught.

As regards, your desire to emulate older non-cross-strung pianos, I suspect this would be down to the mathematical 'model' or algorithm used to construct the virtual piano. Maybe in future releases of PianoTeq we can have access to 'frame models' and a choice of cross-string, straight-string, metal, wood (various types), glass, plastic? (I joke with glass and plastic - but could be interesting?) I'm only guessing - I don't know how detailed the algorithm is and what parameters could be exposed to user manipulation...

Re: Historic Piano Collection

Smilie wrote:
jcitron wrote:

I've gotten the terminology mixed up! What makes that confusing is Blüthner uses Aliquot for its extra strings in the upper treble. Their grand pianos have an extra non-tunable string that adds some extra stuff to the upper end of the piano.

With that said, I must play around with the parameter in the opposite direction and see what that does since the early instruments are much thinner strung up in that end and are more resonant.

It is confusing, isn't it? I knew nothing of this before buying the p515 and wondering: "What is this 'Aliquot' setting?" In fact, since buying and experimenting with PianoTeq I am learning more about the technical side. Hitherto, I was just concerned with playing them as best I could being self-taught.

As regards, your desire to emulate older non-cross-strung pianos, I suspect this would be down to the mathematical 'model' or algorithm used to construct the virtual piano. Maybe in future releases of PianoTeq we can have access to 'frame models' and a choice of cross-string, straight-string, metal, wood (various types), glass, plastic? (I joke with glass and plastic - but could be interesting?) I'm only guessing - I don't know how detailed the algorithm is and what parameters could be exposed to user manipulation...

It is confusing isn't it. It doesn't help that piano companies had their own terms for some of the common stuff either. I agree that may very well be some maths stuff to make that work as we would think it's supposed to work.

There have been other experiments too with other materials so don't discount plastic. Schimmel once made an acrylic grand piano. I tried one once at a dealer and I wasn't impressed. There was also an acrylic piano in one of the 1960s or 1970s movies if I recall. They may very well have been a Schimmel as well, but back then I wasn't keen on figuring out or looking for piano brands.