Topic: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

The result of Pianoteq's MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistant are five velocity mappings depending on the player and the MIDI keyboard.

Wishlist/proposal:
It would be nice if these five velocity mappings could be changed in realtime with the faders/knobs of a common MIDI controller (e.g. Korg NanoKontrol).

https://i.postimg.cc/Ss2gtZjk/Korg-Nano-Kontrol-Velocity.png

Background:
The velocity mapping generally depends on many variables (piano preset, player, Pianoteq version, keyboard vendor, mechanical variance) and is crucial for a convincing sound and musical response.

Best of both worlds, semi-analog instant access (like hammond drawbars) and digital storage with each instrument preset.

Cheers

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

Press the "option" key (for mac) and select a point on the speed control curve. Thus, you can bind any midi-controller to a given point on the speed control curve. And you can use this on the fly.

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

scherbakov.al wrote:

Press the "option" key (for mac) and select a point on the speed control curve. Thus, you can bind any midi-controller to a given point on the speed control curve. And you can use this on the fly.

Wohoo, how cool is that! It is already there, thank you very much for that find, scherbakov!!
Yes, it works, right click on the control point and then Edit (Linux) . I can select the Y-axis and Pianoteq detects my controller numbers. Fader 1 - 5 are MIDI controller 70 - 74 for example on the NanoKontrol.

Pianoteq and it's community is marvellous!

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

I'm grateful for this also with thanks scherbakov.al - What a great way to get value out of some unused sliders!

& thanks groovy - wow-good suggestion BTW! I hope it can inspire people to think about the velocity curve beyond trying to find just 1. 

BTW also - How many times has this cool loop happened now? A great question, followed by "already is built in"

+++ this software.. the number of edge case things already nailed down in this software makes me tentatively give credence to the thought that just maybe.. these guys went on to invent a time machine! (raised eyebrows).. and it's just their fun hobby now, to keep reading the forum and traveling back to the release before these ideas/questions to add the feature in,  just to jam with us

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

scherbakov.al wrote:

Press the "option" key (for mac) and select a point on the speed control curve. Thus, you can bind any midi-controller to a given point on the speed control curve. And you can use this on the fly.

Is there a way you can do this on a Windows PC??

Warmest regards,

Chris

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

sigasa wrote:

Is there a way you can do this on a Windows PC??

Does right-click not work?

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

Maybe Chris' got to the 'MIDI learn' prompt? - but like me, the sliders do nothing when moved

Unfortunately my sliders don't surface as controllers (have tried - but I'll have to dive into the dpiano manual maybe to find them/or their numbers) - but right-clicking the dots does allow 'edit this control' and then a MIDI-learn prompt awaits input.

It def. works in theory (test by making the pitch wheel the MIDI-learned control for example).

Great idea this and I'd like to hook my sliders up to it to raise or lower 'as I listen' - would be magic - I'll have more time tomorrow or later to see I can do it on my keyb, and post any numbers/tricks I learn.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

Hi all,

I asked because I have a Windows PC and don't yet have the sliders/controller. Which controller do you recommend? I see you have the Korg NanoControl 1st generation.

Warmest regards,

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (11-02-2021 17:17)

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

After thinking about it I changed my first approach a bit. The concept of Pianoteq's calibration assistant is to let the user change the x-coordinate in the mapping. The PTQ assistant predefines five fixed y-coordinates ...

127 -> fff
96 -> f
64 -> mf-mp
32 -> p-pp
2 -> ppp

What I did now is to replace the calibration assistant with five knobs (not faders) on my Korg NanoKontrol to adjust the x-coordinates on the fly.
Knobs 1 - 5 are MIDI controllers 14 - 18 on this 1st gen NanoKontrol.

I created the shown linear velocity mapping for my starting point and saved it for reuse in other presets:

https://i.postimg.cc/XYt42KtP/nanokontrol-velocity-curve-concept1.png

Expressed in numbers:
y x
----
127 127
127 125 (magenta)
96 96 (cyan)
64 64 (yellow)
32 32 (red)
2 0 (green)
0 0

What remains open is an effective strategy to iterate a final curve (for each instrument preset). What I try at the moment starting with the shown linear curve:

1.) mf-mp (yellow), for the main character of the instrument.
2.) ppp (green), move to the right, so that most ppp notes are nearby.
3.) fff (magenta), move to the left, so that most fff notes are nearby.
4.) p-pp (red), for a sensitive bass range but not to a degree, that it sounds dead / wireless.
5.) f (cyan), tonal characteristic of accentuates notes (dull vs. metallic).
6.) Start all over, because all control points interdependend.

Stop, before getting stuck in an endless loop ;-)

Last edited by groovy (14-02-2021 16:16)

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

Hi guys,

Just a heads up

'Wireless Mixer' is an Android App which acts as a DAW controller. It's free and it's very good. You can enable precision and it will display the exact midi value. It works using WiFi and all instructions are clear and concise.

Available on Google play store for free

Warmest regards,

Chris

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

A few first iterations I found using the knobs for some of the pianos together with a Korg B2 keyboard in default mode:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbSLpN6k/Velocity-Korg-B2-iterations.png

Quite similar, but a few x-units (1 - 3) are already discernable, so individual curves make sense to me. Nevertheless averaging one global curve from these 5 presets would be an acceptable compromise (for these 5 presets) I guess.

BTW the Korg B2 seems to be in "good" company with some other brands, just a small range of the 127 MIDI values is usable. Sometimes it seems DP industry get stuck in the stone ages with subpar electromechanical and MIDI calibration.

Last edited by groovy (20-02-2021 16:19)

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

groovy wrote:

BTW the Korg B2 seems to be in "good" company with some other brands, just a small range of the 127 MIDI values is usable. Sometimes it seems DP industry get stuck in the stone ages with subpar electromechanical and MIDI calibration.

I completely agree with you here groovy.

However there is one company who do the midi range very, very well. And it may surprise many because it is none other than Casio!!! I challenge those who can to hook up Pianoteq with a higher end Casio (CDP, Privia or Hybrid) and check out the midi response!!!

Warmest regards,

Chris

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

Good to hear about Casio, Chris, thanks.
If the PX-S1000 or S3000 is in your listing, it could be an interesting budget controller for Pianoteq. But as far as I know their ultra short pivot is a joke (in my opinion, and unless space and weight hadn't been the only development target). - Something is always...

Last edited by groovy (20-02-2021 19:35)

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

groovy wrote:

Good to hear about Casio, Chris, thanks.
If the PX-S1000 or S3000 is in your listing, it could be an interesting budget controller for Pianoteq. But as far as I know their ultra short pivot is a joke (in my opinion, and unless space and weight hadn't been the only development target). - Something is always...

No, I don't recommend the new Privia series for that reason. I tried one and the pivot point is ridiculously short.

I do recommend the current hybrids and the previous generation privias i.e. px-160 etc. and Privia Pro series of you're on a budget.

Warmest regards,

Chris

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

groovy wrote:

BTW the Korg B2 seems to be in "good" company with some other brands, just a small range of the 127 MIDI values is usable.

On the Korg D1 I get all values from 0 to 127, but that dp has a different action then the B2. However I find that the 'normal' curve on the D1 is little on the 'slow' side - I generally get more natural feeling results using the faster curve (I could adjust it in PT itself of course, but haven't had time to dive into that yet). I see that the B2 has three touch curves that you can choose, Have you tried the lighter curve? Perhaps it gives you better results in the two extremes of the range than your graphs are showing now.

Last edited by thiesdewaard (20-02-2021 21:29)

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

@sigasa
I criticized the new Privias I mentioned for the short pivot too, not sure if I made that clear enough. I just hoped they are in the list of Casios, that have a fullrange midimap.

@thiesdewaard
All hardwired factory curves on the Korg B2 are unusable with Pianoteq without adaption in my opinion. I even would not mind one second to play the B2's default curve with Korg's own internal piano sounds.
To the "faster curve" in your D1: Is it documented by Korg somewhere? Would be interesting to compare the shape.

Last edited by groovy (20-02-2021 23:08)

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

groovy wrote:

@sigasa
I criticized the new Privias I mentioned for the short pivot too, not sure if I made that clear enough. I just hoped they are in the list of Casios, that have a fullrange midimap.

Absolutely clear enough groovy! Just agreeing with you. There also reports that the black keys and white keys differ in velocity response on these ultra narrow Privias.

Warmest regards,

Chris

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

groovy wrote:

A few first iterations I found using the knobs for some of the pianos together with a Korg B2 keyboard in default mode:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbSLpN6k/Velocity-Korg-B2-iterations.png

Quite similar, but a few x-units (1 - 3) are already discernable, so individual curves make sense to me. Nevertheless averaging one global curve from these 5 presets would be an acceptable compromise (for these 5 presets) I guess.

BTW the Korg B2 seems to be in "good" company with some other brands, just a small range of the 127 MIDI values is usable. Sometimes it seems DP industry get stuck in the stone ages with subpar electromechanical and MIDI calibration.

https://i.postimg.cc/L6wxp2nW/Korg-B2-middle-D-D4-25g-5g-steps.png

I don't know if it is just numeric "mysticism", but eventually it is more than a coincidence. With higher drop weights the MIDI velocity is limited to ~70 on a Korg B2 (acceleration by gravity sets this limit).

On the other hand my manual calibration of five Pianoteq pianos described a year ago in this thread results in average ~72 for the mapping to 64 (medium Pianoteq loudness mf mp). Average of [71, 74, 74, 72, 70] in my shown five calibration curves of a Korg B2.

Does our arm/body eventually sense the earth acceleration g and "expects" the medium response of a keyboard at that acceleration? As a balance point for more acceration to f, ff, fff and slow down to p, pp, ppp??

Probably this idea is complete nonsense, but if not, it would be an easy objective method to find the middle point of a reasonable calibration curve for an individual Digital Piano: Just drop a weight of ~500 g on a middle white key, note the outgoing MIDI velocity and remap it to 64 (pianoteq's mf/mp) ...

Re: "Analog" MIDI Keyboard Calibration Assistance?

groovy wrote:

Nevertheless averaging one global curve from these 5 presets would be an acceptable compromise (for these 5 presets) I guess.

... in preparation of some minor velocity tweaks for the new Pianoteq 8 I continued were I stopped last year and made an average velocity curve from the 5 shown heuristic curves:

Velocity = [0, 37, 56, 71, 85, 104, 127; 0, 2, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]
Velocity = [0, 42, 60, 74, 86, 103, 127; 0, 2, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]
Velocity = [0, 34, 58, 74, 89, 105, 127; 0, 2, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]
Velocity = [0, 30, 58, 72, 90, 107, 127; 0, 2, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]
Velocity = [0, 39, 57, 70, 84, 104, 127; 0, 2, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]

Average curve:
Velocity = [0, 36, 58, 72, 87, 105, 127; 0, 2, 32, 64, 96, 127, 127]
->
https://i.postimg.cc/fWG72tQy/Korg-B2-average-PU-2.png KorgB2-average-PU-2.png

Because it is an average curve I expect it to be mediocre (no the best match for each Pianoteq instrument), but a good starting point / universal standard for my individal tweaks per instrument.

The narrow, usable range between velocities 36 and 105 has become relatively linear in that new "standard" curve:   

https://i.postimg.cc/wTS6szNS/Trendline-through-5curve-average-Korg-B2.png

The linear trendline (orange) has an remarkable equation:
f(x) = 1.9 x - 70.8

Once again a MIDI value of ~70 appears in the game (being the y-axis intercept).

Furthermore the gradient is 1.9, nearly twice as steep as a 1:1 mapping we all would like to use in a perfect world Pianoteq MIDI-keyboard match.

This factor ~2 leads to association, that only 64 values (6-bit) instead of the standard 128 (7-bit) could be used for velocity in that Korg. But that would be very unlikely nowadays, better forget that idea.

Last edited by groovy (29-11-2022 18:59)