Topic: Realistic Sustain

First let me say that the longer sustain in ver. 7 is very nice, much more realistic. This really sets Pianoteq apart from so many others, whose pianos decay far too rapidly. For students, the longer sustain will help them get a more accurate feel for when to change pedal, something that was pretty much impossible on a keyboard prior to this (and Pianoteq's sustain was already far better than most, now it seems to be almost twice as long). I feel that overall it's pretty accurate now, but perhaps it could actually be a touch longer.

One thing to note: the Hamburg Steinway's sustain now seems about right, but the New York Steinway's sustain is a good 15 seconds or so shorter. My New York Steinway M (not a D) sustains about the same as Pianoteq's Hamburg Steinway D (when playing a strong bass octave, volume matched). I'd love to see the NY Steinway's sustain increased to be closer to the Hamburg's.

Re: Realistic Sustain

You're obviously the expert here, so this question is more for my knowledge than anything else -- doesn't the Soundboard Impedance setting do what you want here?

Re: Realistic Sustain

Where is the like button, can't find it anymore.

Re: Realistic Sustain

navindra wrote:

You're obviously the expert here, so this question is more for my knowledge than anything else -- doesn't the Soundboard Impedance setting do what you want here?

Yes that's exactly what it does, but I've found that when you push the impedance too far the tone isn't as natural as what the developers are able to do under the hood.

Re: Realistic Sustain

Well... you know... in New York things are always so hurried, so fast and selfish...
You should be glad that NY Steinway don't talk back or pushes you...
;-)

Have you check the sustein time in all Hamburg and NY presets?

You said your real Steinway M have the same sustein time as the Hamburg pianoteq one. But perhaps the Hamburg and NY real models D are different, maybe the hammers of Hamburg-D in bass range have more weight and as consequence a produce more powerfull strike and as result a longer sustein.

What about also check sustein duration, from Hamburg compared to NY, for the middle range and the trebble?

Why didn't you tried a longer Direct Sound Duration adjust? Or this combined with just a slight sounbdboard impedance increase.

NathanShirley wrote:

One thing to note: the Hamburg Steinway's sustain now seems about right, but the New York Steinway's sustain is a good 15 seconds or so shorter. My New York Steinway M (not a D) sustains about the same as Pianoteq's Hamburg Steinway D (when playing a strong bass octave, volume matched). I'd love to see the NY Steinway's sustain increased to be closer to the Hamburg's.

Last edited by Beto-Music (11-01-2021 01:09)

Re: Realistic Sustain

Beto-Music wrote:

Have you check the sustein time in all Hamburg and NY presets?

You said your real Steinway M have the same sustein time as the Hamburg pianoteq one. But perhaps the Hamburg and NY real models D are different, maybe the hammers of Hamburg-D in bass range have more weight and as consequence a produce more powerfull strike and as result a longer sustein.

What about also check sustein duration, from Hamburg compared to NY, for the middle range and the trebble?

I checked about 3 presets in each, all very similar within the same instrument.

I've played plenty of NY Ds (they're pretty standard in US halls) and their sustain seems pretty close to my M, likely a little bit longer on average, but I haven't actually timed them. Of course pianos are all voiced differently, so that's a subjective generalization. With this pandemic it might be a while before I play a D again... Comparing the middle and upper ranges would also be interesting, but the bass sustain was immediately noticeable back when I first found Pianoteq, which is what prompted me to test it again in version 7 (I brought it up several years back). I should also add that I haven't noticed much of a difference with other companies' concert grands in terms of sustain, although again I haven't timed them. Most keyboards have a ridiculously short sustain, to the point where it almost doesn't matter if you change the pedal or just hold it down, so at any rate it's refreshing to see Pianoteq moving in a much more realistic direction.

Re: Realistic Sustain

Beto-Music wrote:

Why didn't you tried a longer Direct Sound Duration adjust? Or this combined with just a slight sounbdboard impedance increase.

I've experimented a good bit with both of these. I think for small adjustments it can work nicely and retain a very realistic sound, but pushing them to give you 15 extra seconds of sustain leads to an organ-like sound, where the initial decay isn't rapid enough. I'm sure there are other complex elements to the sound which makes this no easy fix, but I think balancing the initial decay with the final decay is the main issue.

Re: Realistic Sustain

Uhhnn... if you are right, it's quite strange the Beta tests to had missed this, as I supose Modartt listened to people familiar with real NY Steinway-D.
Anyway, it will probably quite easy for them to fix it, and 2 minutes for you download and install the update.

In case some or most people prefer NY-D as it's now, Modartt could (I presume) add some extra presets with longer sustein.

NathanShirley wrote:

I checked about 3 presets in each, all very similar within the same instrument.

I've played plenty of NY Ds (they're pretty standard in US halls) and their sustain seems pretty close to my M, likely a little bit longer on average, but I haven't actually timed them. Of course pianos are all voiced differently, so that's a subjective generalization. With this pandemic it might be a while before I play a D again... Comparing the middle and upper ranges would also be interesting, but the bass sustain was immediately noticeable back when I first found Pianoteq, which is what prompted me to test it again in version 7 (I brought it up several years back). I should also add that I haven't noticed much of a difference with other companies' concert grands in terms of sustain, although again I haven't timed them. Most keyboards have a ridiculously short sustain, to the point where it almost doesn't matter if you change the pedal or just hold it down, so at any rate it's refreshing to see Pianoteq moving in a much more realistic direction.

Last edited by Beto-Music (11-01-2021 03:01)

Re: Realistic Sustain

Beto-Music wrote:

Well... you know... in New York things are always so hurried, so fast and selfish...
You should be glad that NY Steinway don't talk back or pushes you...
;-)

But I want my pianos to push me!

Re: Realistic Sustain

NathanShirley wrote:

First let me say that the longer sustain in ver. 7 is very nice, much more realistic. This really sets Pianoteq apart from so many others, whose pianos decay far too rapidly. For students, the longer sustain will help them get a more accurate feel for when to change pedal, something that was pretty much impossible on a keyboard prior to this (and Pianoteq's sustain was already far better than most, now it seems to be almost twice as long). I feel that overall it's pretty accurate now, but perhaps it could actually be a touch longer.

One thing to note: the Hamburg Steinway's sustain now seems about right, but the New York Steinway's sustain is a good 15 seconds or so shorter. My New York Steinway M (not a D) sustains about the same as Pianoteq's Hamburg Steinway D (when playing a strong bass octave, volume matched). I'd love to see the NY Steinway's sustain increased to be closer to the Hamburg's.

Thank you Nathan for the nice words

We will have a close look. I just made a fast comparison with chord F0-A0-C1 (midi # 29 33 36) played fortissimo (velocity 127) with base presets NY Steinway Model D and HB Steinway Model D, and found that NY lasted longer than HB. Could you give me a couple of examples where you found that NY was shorter than HB?

Re: Realistic Sustain

Hi Philippe.

Just as a matter of curiosity. What in a real piano makes the sustein last longer, comparing one brand to another?
For example, let's get two pianos brands, both with same lenght and string lenght, but one with longer sustein than the other. What is the major piano component involved in sustein duration, the soundboard wood quality, or the quality of the strings?

Re: Realistic Sustain

It's really interesting, I was doing these comparisons in a fairly consistent, quiet, but not silent room, just playing a low C octave with sustain pedal held down (MIDI 24 & 36), somewhere around velocity 120-ish. I then tested a couple of your notes, MIDI 29 & 36, with no sustain pedal and at velocity 127, and found the same results as I did before. I then exported recorded WAV files and brought them into a DAW. If I listened to the tail ends of the sustained notes with the volume cranked way up, I could immediately hear what you heard Philippe, that the NY was indeed longer than the Hamburg. In the long sustained note, the NY has few, or at least very quiet overtones, but a strong fundamental. The Hamburg on the other hand has very little fundamental, but very clear overtones. And the NY does last longer in this way. When I set the volume back at a normal level, I could now just barely perceive the low NY tone about as long as the Hamburg's sustain.

So I think what this might come down to, at least to my ears, is that the Hamburg's higher overtone sustain gives a stronger sense of a longer sustain, while the more pure low sustain of the NY piano gets more quickly lost, even though it's still there. In normal playing I feel like the NY Steinway's sustain is a little unnaturally short, like its momentum just runs out quicker.

Sorry to write so much, but I decided to do another test: octave, MIDI 24 & 36, velocity 127, with sustain pedal down (though having the sustain pedal down or not doesn't seem to change the results too much). It still seemed like the NY sustain was much shorter than the Hamburg. I then exported the audio and opened it in my DAW. Even when I cranked the volume up, it still sounded like the NY's sustain was much shorter, and the level meter confirmed this. The point at which the meter drops below -60 dB is a good 20 seconds earlier for the NY than the Hamburg.

So I think that's what I'm generally hearing, for normal playing, the sustain of the NY Steinway seems to lose energy/amplitude much quicker than the Hamburg (especially somewhere between 20 to 30 seconds in).

(By the way, all of the above tests were done using the same presets as what you used Philippe.)

Re: Realistic Sustain

I did some testes yesterdasy night, using 127 velocity value and the C-0 and even the extra bass keys, plus pedal, comparing NY and Hamburg Steinway-D. But I was without headphone and couldn't raise the volume very much, and there was some noises in the house, so I didn't commented about. But I found the NY, despite apparently sound shorter in sustein in relation to Hamburg, wasn't as shorter as you said, Nathan, but just about 4 seconds or so.
I felt the volume decay earlier in the NY. In a noise room this give the ilusion of shorter sustein.

Now we have a new question. Have a real NY Steinway a noticeable long (as long or longer then Hamburg) sustein feeling even in a noise room?
Or is it just a matter of the power of the real NY-D piano's soundboard, since it compete way better with environment noises than a speaker can compete?

Last edited by Beto-Music (11-01-2021 21:17)

Re: Realistic Sustain

Beto-Music wrote:

Hi Philippe.

Just as a matter of curiosity. What in a real piano makes the sustein last longer, comparing one brand to another?
For example, let's get two pianos brands, both with same lenght and string lenght, but one with longer sustein than the other. What is the major piano component involved in sustein duration, the soundboard wood quality, or the quality of the strings?

The major involved component is with no doubt the soundboard impedance, which of course depends on its shape (thickness is important) and the wood properties.