Pianoteq & Noire

Oh yeah... I rekon there was a query in there:  has anyone found any VSTs that accomplish anything similar to the "Noire effect", that is, the smart algorithm, particle, or granular type effect?  I don't mean mangling, but more subtle.  And while we are on the subject, any other useful VST effects to combine with Pianoteq?

Pianoverb by PSP is cool, BTW.  And my current reverb of choice is Breeze by 2caudio.

Lexikon-Sonate found here:  http://www.essl.at/software.html  is pretty cool.  It's not a VST but will load Pianoteq as the player for its algorithms.  A rather scholarly interface but it's safe to install - I had no problems.  There's some genius here.  Not me, but the programmer.

I don't like dirtying the sound of the piano too much, but this is because I'm still in the learning phase.
Anyway, this Noire Piano particles effect is very interesting to be explored.

Coming to the vst, I think that you can give a look at the Unfilered Audio Byome or Triad, that are modular multi effects plugins very capable in terms of audio processing.
The modulation possibilities are quite impressive, at the cost of some cpu power.

Yes... it's very nice.  I tried out the demo.  It's like a smart shimmer, but still lacks the AI - or smart accompaniment - that the Noire appears to impart with the various algorithms you can choose from.  Purchasing Noire would actually be cheaper and could still be used with different instruments, though it would impart its pianistic tone to the accompanying effect.  Unfortunately sample libraries like Noire rarely come with demo versions.  Output's Portal is a nice effect but it does too much modulation.  I'm not so interested in the phasey stuff - I like the softer smart particles.

Oh yeah, I do like that reverb Fleer, thanks. Just will say it's more synthetic rather than a realism ticket.. but for modern lush piano a definite set of advantages (tunable to key - non-room type etc.).. I think it's just made my shopping list, thank you

Nice resources and ideas there Cellomangler

I think you have a good beam on what you want with this type of sound.

Attempting similar things in the past, I do think a mix of Pianoteq plus a clever setup with Max devices will get us closest, but with some long sessions of course trying all kinds of timings/reverbs on multi-chanels etc.. pulling hair maybe

That kind of thing is definitely where the best results are, IMO.

Something like this might be way of attaining a good starting point on that workflow (you might already know it of course)..

Max for Live Community Resource is a website filled with user-created MAX tools you can download and drop into your Ableton projects.

Just imagining the main Pianoteq piano on track 1 (with already some soft luscious production values), and splitting/sending out more than one FX chanel, each with a line of Max MIDI manipulation devices.. things like "randomise" + "Key (so only apropos notes)" + "transpose (randomised)" etc..

each a kind of ethereal bubble of misty shadow for main piano. You might decide 3 is a good number (like a chord - and remembering we can automate chords or other things in a Max device lineup to follow your arrangement if wanting to get extra magic).

If you have multiple tracks of at least somehow "related" echos (maths for timings, key, chordal associations, swing etc.), with their differences in timings then your tempo can influence the flow or movement of things.. and these devices can be automated for that too (speeding/slowing/randomising delay timings).

When I tried Noir, I felt it's nice to have that aural cloud of jangling delight following piano ("It's someone else's work though" stays in my mind personally - but it won't trouble majority of users) but I think there's a much larger universe of rhythmic possibilities when you unpack the whole Max toy chest and look around for interesting combinations of devices to line up.

Remember, if one device breaks things in an interesting way, another might line it back up in an interesting way (random harmonies, transposed in the right key etc - like running a sentence through Google translator and different languages a dozen times and getting weird results - but intelligently correcting it somehow with another tool.. 'glitch' it a bit, break and repair over and again.. think of running a photo through the same "sharpen" filter until it's just surprisingly weird mechanical lines, make that a 'relief' layer in some photo editor, for another analogy).. maybe make one device for transposing +12, another to randomly move delay notes between 4th to 7ths, skipping 5ths and so on. Use another to put the resultant spread of notes into a white-list of notes or a key.. Send every other note to a different stereo panned position.

Adding a subtle "gate" or any number of compression and expansion tricks differently for each jingly misty ethereal delay chanel.

(Oh about panning - NOTE which comes to mind here.. get a panning plugin if your DAW doesn't do more than simplistic panning.. it's a long story - but worth considering.. as IIRC you can use a panning Max 'device' in Ableton to emulate a 'proper' old school mixing desk type which made a lot of difference to me - don't have latest ver of Ableton and they've likely changed/fixed standard panning options now but not sure ATM.) - it can make the difference between something wide still sounding strangely flat esp. on speakers.

I know people like the specific Noir sound, it's very good to play with - but I would be tired of it, after using it on one piece myself.. whereas a line up of Max devices on split up chanels mixed back in with some orchestration is to me theoretically unlimited in appeal (just no bounds, or same-ishness possible if you work mercilessly on deciding changes to parameters, allowing yourself to go with new directions rather then emulating).

Just remembered that I made an FXP last year called "FilmEsque" partly inspired by particle engine type echos (users were posting about Noir and felt pianos fairly regularly, probably when the product was released or updated, or marketed).

The description I added was:

"Filmic sound with rhythmic humanised delays in a moody long plate reverb, and a twist of wah wha. Suited to various rhythms. Note the cymbalom beating when notes are held and the celeste pedal is suggested to be used to broadly alter tone."

That doesn't sound the same as Noir but shows how you can create a similar rhythmic trick in Pianoteq using both delay and the cymbalom beat timing. Playing at different BPM will make the echo feel different. Playing with timings of either can make it feel more relaxed or complex. Competing rhythms are pretty key to it's appeal (think of pendulums swinging at different timings and lining up in patterns - explore). I do love changing tonality using the damper pedal with it too - dark and light.

The beauty of Pianoteq is editability.. so I'd begin with a more bassy piano, change tones in the echo and just keep tweaking.

Other FXP files at the Pianoteq FXP Corner might be a better basis for outside processing in a DAW though. So many good presets in there by so many.

By all means, feel welcome to tweak that FXP (upload a version if you want - happy for others to say "here's my tweak") - kind of like the idea of the community having attempts at their notion of the Noir sound - and I think in the end though, it's going to be most successful (as a type of version of Noir) if it gets run through a strategic FX array in a DAW too - there's a lot of production going on in it. That FXP though, even by itself is something I still like, it's a piano sound I've done mix recordings with as it can nicely hide behind synths and give some organic plushness to counterbalance other synth's tones.

Thanks for the fun of instigating more thoughts about this with such interesting questions, Cellomangler.

Do let us know how you progress - it's challenging stuff but the journey is pretty compelling to me

(sorry for long post - time on hands, fascinated.. carry on)

That sounds like an excellent way of working, all of it Cellomangler

The breath controller really grabs me - never tried it but how intuitive it seems. I also began as mainly a guitarist. Nothing like genuine human expressiveness cutting a swathe through - I've always found guitarists often develop great unique styles and branch into working with other instruments/audio really seamlessly. Oh, and those SWAM tools, hadn't tried those either - looks really great. Thank you!

Having thought about all this a while, I've kind of taken to the idea of simply duplicating Pianoteq track MIDI performances onto other accompanying tracks (editing/transposing etc) then assigning those to different synths/FX etc. Thanks for that inspiration. Perhaps it's a good deal easier than programming a series of Max devices. Really still no limits with a selection of tasty related atmos going on at different levels in background, esp. if they go to their own separate FX or groups.

Good luck in your hunt for VSTs.

Just read a recent newsletter from Native Instruments, so thought 'why not share'.. not sure if price is too much more than you want to pay but I am really considering upgrading my Native Instrument Kontakt setup to ver 6 and biting on their new orchestral tool called Arkhis. The demos on the page do demonstrate an ability to quickly generate some interesting accompaniment, having also enough ethereal rhythmic glitter too for alignment with your goals perhaps - I think the organic nature of the samples could be a pretty fine mix with Pianoteq and SWAM instruments actually.

Gave it a good listen.  Wish there was a demo - but you rarely see those with sample libraries.  It has a powerful low end but overall I prefer the Noire piano sound.  I'm still playing around with Pianoteq and various vst effects, many that I already have but in new combinations.  I can get close to the sound I want with multitap delays playing dulcimer samples tuned to a fifth and an octave/above/below washed in a shimmer reverb of sorts.  The trick is to keep it subtle and use it sparingly.  The thing we find out about these heavily effected instruments is that they are fun to play solo every now and then but tend to really muddy up a mix.

Feer - do you own Ascend?  I'd like to know if you have control over the mix of the dry piano and the effects.  With Noire, you can lower the sound of the Noire dry piano so that you could in essence, use Pianoteq as the principle piano mixed with the effects from the Noire.

Well I've listened to a ton of demos of the Noire and as many as there are of the Ascend through a couple of decent speaker systems.  The Noire basic piano  is very nice but I think I might grow tired of it and could probably get a better felt type sound out of Pianoteq. The mechanical sounds offered by the Noire don't do a lot for me really and though I like the particles, I'm afraid they could get old.  The Ascend has an almost upright character and is pretty ballsy... It might make a nice blend with Pianoteq.  But the bottom line is, the effect engine seems to be more complementary and less overpowering.  Now if they could just have a sale on the Ascend right about now.  BTW I'm not looking to replace Pianoteq, just looking for a fun inspiring extra voice and one that could work well in a modern dance piece.