Topic: Need some advice for MONO compatibility and presets

Hi there!

Recent user of Pianoteq STAGE here and I'm in love with it (sorry for my english, not native) but I need some help from experienced users please

I have 2 topics

1/ MONO COMPATIBILITY FOR ALBUMS

I own pianoteq STAGE and I'm working on recordings of piano solo tracks to put on an album but I'm really wondering the following thing :

Should I put the output of pianoteq in mono and then, add some slight reverb and/or stereoizer to enlarge the sound and keep mono compatibility ok.

or should I use the default output of the pianoteq preset I use ? (but when I convert the track to mono, the sound is weak due to phase cancellation of some sort).

I've made the test with pro tracks from Nils Frahm, Yann Tiersen, Joep Beving, etc. and their sound is as clear and punchy in mono or in stereo.

For those who records piano solo tracks for album, how do you handle mono / stereo ?

2/ HELP WITH PRESETS

I have the STEINWAY MODEL B , the K2 and the ANT PETROF and I'd like to achieve 2 kind of sounds :

mainly this one, Porz Goret from Yann Tiersen = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDdpTvu1omg

and also some kind of "intimate" sound like Joep Beving = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TbG7cbXYSA

I'm aware that with STAGE I can't change so many things (specialy for the joep beving sound which needs to low down the hammers) but it would be really helpful if you could give me some advice about EQ or reverb in Pianoteq (or even fxp in mono ) to achieve something a little bit similar to those sounds, even if it won't be the same (maybe for Porz Goret it is possible, I find the K2 somehow close...)

For external reverb I sometimes use Valhalla Room VST if you have any hints with it.

Many thanks for your help! I'm in love with Pianoteq, really!

Greetings from France

Re: Need some advice for MONO compatibility and presets

Phase cancellation is often problematic with Pianoteq whether you’re choosing mono or stereo software output.  One solution to phase cancellation problems is a $250.00 (US) plugin.

I used it in my forum post: Engineering Pianoteq Steinway B Close Mic Preset.

Let me know if you’re interested.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Need some advice for MONO compatibility and presets

Hi and thanks for your reply!
Well before buying anything I'd like to understand a bit more how others do

Furthermore I think that it must bit worked at best at the source before adding anything else above it.

Re: Need some advice for MONO compatibility and presets

Phase cancellation and stereo signal correlation may concern a mastering engineer, especially.

Roger Louis wrote:

Hi and thanks for your reply!
Well before buying anything I'd like to understand a bit more how others do

Furthermore I think that it must bit worked at best at the source before adding anything else above it.

Most may agree standard and pro versions permit precise control and selection of individual microphones.  Which might work towards your own goals, whenever you decide an upgrade is needed.  An upgrade to one of those versions permits —with possibly one exception— the following setups when needed:

Mixed Stereophony

EBS
Stereophony:Mixed
Width:0.25m
Angle:90 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

NOS
Stereophony:Mixed
Width:0.3m
Angle:90 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

ORTF
Stereophony:Mixed
Width:0.17m
Angle:110 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

GHS
Stereophony:Mixed
Width:0.6m
Angle:90 deg
Capsules:2 x Subcardioid

Runtime Stereophony

AB30
Stereophony:Runtime
Width:0.3m
Angle:0 deg
Capsules:2 x Omnidirectional

AB60
Stereophony:Runtime
Width:0.6m
Angle:0 deg
Capsules:2 x Omnidirectional

AB90
Stereophony:Runtime
Width:0.9m
Angle:0 deg
Capsules:2 x Omnidirectional

AB120
Stereophony:Runtime
Width:1.2m
Angle:0 deg
Capsules:2 x Omnidirectional

AB200
Stereophony:Runtime
Width:2.0m
Angle:0 deg
Capsules:2 x Omnidirectional

Intensity Stereophony

XY60
Stereophony:Intensity
Width:0.0m
Angle:60 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

XY90
Stereophony:Intensity
Width:0.0m
Angle:90 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

XY120
Stereophony:Intensity
Width:0.0m
Angle:120 deg
Capsules:2 x Cardioid

Blumlein
Stereophony:Intensity
Width:0.0m
Angle:90 deg
Capsules:2 x Figure-Eight

Other

Decca Tree
Width:2.0m
Depth:1.2m
Capsules:3 x Omnidirectional

Some microphone manufacturers provide detailed information covering specific mic setups.  DPA Microphones, Inc. is one of those manufacturers that does.

One forum topic Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions is especially informative about piano microphone placements, if you’re opened to it.

However, if you put just one single mic anywhere at the piano, which standard and pro versions permit, you’re going to get exactly zero mono compatibility problems.  Keep in mind even though Monophonic is one of the possible software OUTPUT selections, it is often just the left mic of an otherwise stereo pair.

Philippe Guillaume personally explains Monophonic OUTPUT as follows:

Dec 13 2016 12:42 am:

  • both Monophonic and Sterephonic modes are just a particular configuration of the mics positioning, that is, you can obtain exactly the same result via the OUTPUT section (available in Standard and Pro versions) and chosing the corresponding mic position,

  • usually, the Monophonic output is just the left mic taken from the Stereophonic mode pair,

  • the Monophonic mode is true mono, that is, there is one single mic. That implies that there cannot be phase cancellations isssued from two mics, but still there can be some weak partials (including the fundamental) if the single mic is placed on a node of that partial. You must know that there are numerous nodes all around the piano, so we have to live with,

  • when Monophonic or Sterephonic modes is selected, there is no Level Compensation nor Delay compensation, hence the volume depends on how far the mics are placed from the given instrument, which depends on the selected instrument,

  • for example, in the D4, the Stereophonic pair is placed at [1.50 1.25 1.50; 1.65 0.75 1.50] (let us call it a Close Mic position), hence right in front of the lid, ande the volume is about as loud as in the standard presets,

  • on the contrary, in the Grotrian, the Stereophonic pair is placed at [0.40 -0.60 1.50; 1.10 -0.60 1.50], hence in player position sitting a bit back, hence the reduction in volume,

  • for many years, the Stereophonic pair was placed in Close Mic position (as in D4). Recently (as in Grotrian), we found it more appropriate to have it in player position, which explains what you have observed.

He clearly makes those points: shown above.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (30-04-2020 17:22)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Need some advice for MONO compatibility and presets

Thanks again for this detailed reply !
Well, for reference and test I've downloaded those 2 tracks from Yann Tiersen and Einaudi and convert them in mono... to my suprise the sound is dark and lower like mine in fact... even for those 2 huge artists... So I don't understand, maybe I'm too hard on myself I don't know... Try if if you want, it surprised me how much the sound changed in mono : I don't find Pianoteq worst

Ludovico Einaudi = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VONMkKkdf4

Yann Tiersen = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDdpTvu1omg

Re: Need some advice for MONO compatibility and presets

Well, honestly if you can put a lot of your favorite commercial piano recordings inside a DAW just to put them under the scrutiny of the DAW correlation meter, you’ll find very likely, each is hardly without its own correlation issues, and often abundantly so! 

Although, they unanimously were indeed mastered by professional mastering engineers who are or were considered reputable individuals amongst their peers, unquestionably!

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Need some advice for MONO compatibility and presets

I guess it must be especially hard to avoid it in piano solo but I wouldn't thought it happened in pro recordings as well...
So should I not worry too much about it for an album ?

Re: Need some advice for MONO compatibility and presets

Man, don’t worry; be happy!

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.