Playable setup for Yamaha GT1 / GT2 with internal speakers? need help

I've bought PTQ Standard recently (with Steinway B, Bechstein, Steingraeber) and have spent several days trying to find a good sounding, playable setup with the Yamaha GT1 as midi controller and acoustic output – to no avail. As I'm afraid I'm getting frustrated with the task, I hope for help of other piano players here – I saw that some of you do use the same keyboard.

Connection-wise, no problems at all: Macbook pro with an external Midi-USB adapter, output from headphone port over jack plug with adaptor 4 to 3 rings into AUX (line in) of the instrument. Works fine.

But I can't find any FXP / microphone setup that sounds natural and is agreeable to play. I am an experienced classical hobby pianist, I own the GT1 for some 10 years now and I'm still quite satisfied with the (somewhat dated) samples of the instrument. My goal with PTQ is to get at least close to the benchmark set by the GT1, or have better results. What counts for me is what I hear as a player through the acoustical output of the instrument, I'm less interested in recreating concert hall soundscapes etc. All my PTQ experiments by now have been with the virtual Steinway B (I'm familiar with the acoustical instrument and know how it should sound).

Here are the problems I have.

– action noises. PTQ generates a lot of action noises that are much too intrusive when playing (maybe they are fine for recording). I've set hammer, key release and pedal noises to low values or zero, still there is a lot of (what seems to be) damper noise and, first of all, a noise like the felt of the hammer touching the strings at attack. I've tried placing the mics in greater distance, what helps a litte bit, but spoils any feeling of being near to the instrument.

– evenness of touch and intonation. I can obtain trebles that are more or less ok; but either the mids or the basses or both are flat and artificial. I've loaded the velocity curve from the file section which seems to work well. I've played around with all parameters: EQ, microphones, intonation, design ... no result comes close to the quality of the built-in sounds. Mostly lacking brilliance, body and variability.

– the overall results are just not similar to an acoustic grand and far below the naturalness of the built-in sounds of the GT1. With PTQ the instrument is, helas, no joy to play. I listened to several tracks recorded with PTQ here in the forum and some of them seem really good. Thus, my suspicion is that the specific construction of the GT1 with the speakers in the upper and lower board of the instrument makes it extremely difficult to obtain a natural feeling result. Actually, in my setup, PTQ has to be set up in a way that makes the sound seem to come from the instrument, not from lateral monitors. I've tried microphone placement within the virtual grand, changing all parameters innumerable times, but the results are still bad.

What am I hoping for with this post?

I am afraid that advices concerning details like which hammer hardness to try etc. won't resolve my problem (although: who knows). But maybe there is somebody here in the forums who uses the same instrument, is a classical player as well (I mostly play transparent, detail-rich music like Scarlatti, JS and CPE Bach, Mozart, Beethoven as well, very litte romanticism, so precision in sound control is what I am looking for) and who has already found a setup that work. Maybe after going through similar problems like mine.

Oh, yes: I've tried all the default setups, "Prelude" and "Home" are nearest (though still quite far from) what I am looking for. "Player" does actually describe my needs best, but sounds much too noise-rich, flat and generally not natural. I've experimented a lot with creating my own FXP setups, but still can't find any that works for me or at least makes me confident that with some more tweaks I'll find the sound I need. I am seriously thinking about abandoning my PTQ-experiment, but I still hope that it's just my fault and you, accomplished PTQ-users and fellow piano enthusiasts, will have the solution ...

Thanks for reading this somewhat bulky post. Cheers! Martin

brian dan wrote:

It is possible that Yamaha has made their sound system sound best for the onboard sound that is why I am thinking about installing new speakers on mine.

Glad to hear Brian that you have similar issues – and this with the GT7 (which should have better acoustics than my GT1). As to me, the sound system of the GT series is not too bad. I use my instrument as a "music center" sometimes to listen to sound recordings and the results are really ok.

I still think that it could be a problem of sound geometry: we have to make the sound appear to come out of the instrument itself, not out of monitors somewhere in the room (or headphones). But that, besides, would not resolve the issue with the noises.

Thank you everybody for you replies! Here is a first update.

First of all, I made a big step ahead concerning playability and, what astonishes me – sound!, by NOT using the velocity curve for the Yamaha GT1 / GT2 from the knowledge base https://www.modartt.com/velocity_curves .
I loaded the curve right from my start with PTQ, as recommended in the manual. I tried the calibration feature, but the results seemed inconsistent. What I did not try, at least not for long enough, is just the linear default. Yesterday I did, and the improvements were impressing. It's not just that the touch feels more natural (it's possible to adapt very quickly to different keyboards on acoustic instruments, thus it should be on virtual instruments as well), it has a massive effect on the sound, which is much less hollow now and better finetuneable by hammer settings.

As to your tips and suggestions:

brian dan wrote:

Did you try headphones? Are you satisfied with the headphones sound coming out? There is a thread about microphone placement. I have not tried it yet though. I was going to make a post about this but do you execute it before me. If we have patience then the gurus which I Minh

Yes I tried, but results got better only with the changing of the velocity curve. I have decent studio headphones by AKG that I use with the GT1 frequently. Which post about headphones were you referring to? I'd like to check it out, but couldn't find it!

musicchamber wrote:

I am totally blown away by the sound of IK Multimedia iLoud MTM used in conjunction with a sub-woofer.

Thanks for this tip – this could be a way to got. But actually, a somewhat minimalistic setup is one of my priorities. I have an acoustic instrument to work with from time to time, and I still hope that I can make go with what the GT1 includes speaker-wise ... But if not (or my demands rise), I will absolutely have a look on these speakers. The problems I have with PTQ are less linked to reproduction fidelity. I think they stem mostly from the modelling itself.

hanysz wrote:

I've had similar issues (although with a different brand of keyboard). [...]

Thank you hanysz, all your points were very valuable and encouraging! I think you are right with everything here – that the benchmark set by the Yamaha sound engineers is extremely high; that my being used to a specific sound/setup plays a huge role; that the Steinway B is especially problematic and that I have to invest many more hours if I want to get results and, first of all, just use PTQ for working on my repertoire even if it does not (yet?) sound like I desire.

I took your advice to heart and did a two hours study/training session with a Bechstein (!) setup that I varied from time to time (based on the Prelude preset). I'm still not satisfied with the mids, which sound flat, and I am missing brilliance. But with the "new" velocity setting (see above) everything got a lot better already. I massively enjoyed the possibility to immediately rehearse the bits I am working on. In this respect, PTQ is really an excellent tool.

I suppose what you write on the virtual Steinway B is absolutely correct. I went for it mostly because the acoustic B is such an excellent and versatile instrument, and after fiddling around a bit with the demo I decided that probably I would just need to do same finetuning (of the parameters) to make it sound good. But that didn't work out by now. As to me, the modelling of the B seems to be made with a magnifying glass on the action and the felt of the hammers. If it were a photograph, I would say that it is extremely oversharped and generally too heftily coloured, but – what makes it somehow incorrectible – dull and grey in the center.

The Bechstein works better, but has other problems (lacking presence, still feeling artificial ...). Maybe I can resolve them bit by bit. I've played through all the demo instruments, but before trying all sorts of tweaks, it's difficult to say what could work out (that's something I understand more and more). Do you maybe have a recommendation which instrument works well for classical music? Do you have any favourite for your own work?

Thanks everybody once more. The hope to make PTQ a useable tool for me is back, to a certain degree at least. I'm somehow confident that I will discover more ways to improve the outcome – let's see.

Do you maybe have a recommendation which instrument works well for classical music? Do you have any favourite for your own work?

I think that it is always going to sound synthetic . . . With this software you can Express your emotions freely and that is what it is all about right? I think it is close enough and maybe we can call it a different kind of thing and except it for what it is.