I play in bands for over 25 years. My opinion is that it doesn't take much for an electronic drum to overcome an acoustic drum. Obviously, I mean sound, not playability. I say this because I consider the timbre of acoustic drums to be extremely dirty, noisy, staggering and, in a way, non-musical.
Playing in a band that has electronic drums, modeled or sampled, is my dream as a pianist!
Well folks and evil, I’ve a turnaround that is a complete change of heart. Now I like drum sounds from MODO DRUM. After an update, I find them very realistic; so much so, I got a licensed copy. That I plan to use in my very own jazz drum soloing. Man, the sounds are just that good. Do they sound Uber realistic?
Check out this YouTuber’s post:
https://youtu.be/ba6jG90MLRE
Some parts of MODO Drum are just samples. And it's probably the most important part to model. Also still no brush kit?
Cymbal parts are sampled parts of MODO DRUM, just as MODARTT originally released PIANOTEQ with sampled pedal noises and others. (PIANOTEQ used samples for years, until sometime just recently.) However, PIANOTEQ to a MODARTT advantage already fully models cymbal-like sounding instruments such as vibes, bells, Etc.
These eventually might carry over know-how and translate into playable cymbals, if people like you and me can persuade MODARTT to take up a cause for only a dumb drummer! (Smile.) It just seems people that have become somehow embarrassed by drummers hardly want any association with the likes of anybody who would bang on a drum all day. I mean nobody with any common sense is ever going really to equate the genius of a Mozart or Chopin with that of a Gene Krupa! Face facts. Be real!
Man, Leandro Santos Duarte, I seem to have gotten off somehow on a tangent. Once (again) my buttons were pushed; I just now reacted to your comment. You know yours about dirt in your reference to drums.
Let me see if I’ve any comeback needed.
Realistically, Roland drum modules do permit brush swirls and other brush options, no reason now for IK Multimedia’s MODO DRUM to skimp and skip there. Personally, I anxiously await an update. And, promise to post when it arrives.
Though I may tend to rant on a subject as dear to me as this one, simply because I am a drummer in essentially a keyboardist's forum, I do affirm no VST company (organization) appears more capable than MODARTT, if only it were to model drum sets including cymbals. Certainly, if PIANOTEQ models already vibes and bells beautifully, some of the most realistic sounding of virtual instruments I've ever heard, clearly even specific brands of cymbals are a likely possibility too as potential models for the percussionists also to play:
Two virtual vibraphones, V-M and V-B, reproduce faithfully the characteristic sound of two well-known vibraphone brands.
Now I’m being entirely optimistic! Eventually MODARTT might model more than only a cymbal or two from its vast experience —where others have grossly failed— and indeed individual brands such as Zildjian and Paiste, distinguished by their own unique sounds favored by the drummers, personally.
I think drums are a instrument that could be improved on via physical modeling, I believe a physical modeled drum kit could sound as good and have the same control and sensitivity options as the real thing.
That genius at Pianteq could do a good job.
Hey OP, I strongly disagree and here's why:
Speaking from a home studio recording experience, Addictive Drums is fantastic software with exceptionally well recorded drum kits that play with all the dynamics and velocities you could hope for. I use a regular keyboard and I can play as dynamically as I want, with no lag in trigger sampling. When I want to actually capture a proper performance, I use my e-drum kit (roldand td-25k) to trigger the samples, and again, with no sample delays or anything. All the velocities and dynamics are there, the different trigger zones, the accents on the cymbals, etc. And the responsiveness is virtually 1:1. I forget that im sitting behind a e-kit triggering samples. Its like sitting behind a real drum kit. And Ive been a drummer for 30 years.
Second: aside from good samples or a physically modeled drumset, the next most important thing to getting a good sound is your midi device. No matter what Modart or any other company would be able to achieve in the realm of modeled drums, it would be pointless if you dont have an electronic drum kit with multiple trigger zones to trigger the software parameters. You are completely limited by the triggering capabilities of your midi device when it comes to triggering drums. For example my E-kit has 3 trigger zones on the cymbals to dynamically trigger different sounds depending on how im playing. Same with my snare, and toms.
Case in point - Pianoteq. It was made for digital keyboards. It was made with very specific hardware in mind. 'Drumteq' would need to be made for electronic drum kits that have multiple trigger zones (i.e td 25k) to fully take advantage of what a physical modeled library would be capable of. And if 'Drumtec' were to be played on a keyboard, there is nothing that a 'Drumteq' library would be able to do that Addictive Drums or Superior Drummer or any other professionally sampled drum library can't already do now on a keyboard. Because keyboards are linear - they have one trigger zone. There's no point in making software that features mulitple trigger parameters for a keyboard that only has one trigger zone.
So in conclusion - current sample libraries like Addictive Drums are already just as good as if you were playing a proper physically modeled drumkit. The velocities, trigger zones, and dynamics are there, and can be played very easily on a keyboard. Throw in an E-kit, and you cant even tell youre not playing a real drum kit. The better the E-kit, the better trigger capabilities you will have to take advantage of all the relative dynamics and sounds of the sample library.
'Drumteq' wont revolutionize drum sample libraries until theres a way to revolutionize how we play our drum sample libraries outside of using E-kits. And if you're using E-kits already, then I cant see how 'drumteq' could possibly improve that experience
How are keyboards linear? Do you still think we're stuck with note on-off? The possibility to shape the drum sound is infinite if you use midi cc and poly aftertouch. It really depends on the approach you take in designing and controlling the sound imho.
How are keyboards linear? Do you still think we're stuck with note on-off? The possibility to shape the drum sound is infinite if you use midi cc and poly aftertouch. It really depends on the approach you take in designing and controlling the sound imho.
Not forgetting the MPE controllers such as the Roli Seaboards which offer a whole lot more than poly AT.
How are keyboards linear? Do you still think we're stuck with note on-off? The possibility to shape the drum sound is infinite if you use midi cc and poly aftertouch. It really depends on the approach you take in designing and controlling the sound imho.
Okay sure, you can definitely use midi CC, breath controllers, roli keyboards etc. But to what end? For a live performance? As input data? It would be incredibly awkward to try and record a drum beat while blowing on a breath controller and playing keyboard, and having to blow for every part of the drun your hitting. This just physically doesnt make sense. For a drummer who wants to capture a performance, the main controller of choice is an E-kit. Full stop.
For anyone else who wants to synhesize drum sounds, theres an infinite numbers of ways to do that already. And for anyone who doesnt fall into either of those categories, a regular midi controller that triggers sampled libraries from Addictive Drums is more than enough.
There just really doesnt seem to be a need for 'Drumteq'. If this product is to be successful, Modart need to identify what their product can offer. More importantly, it needs to be able to make someone say 'wow i need this'. Im not sure why anyone would 'need' modeled drums over the myriad of options currently available.
The only situation I could see myself using modeled drums is if I could build my own drumset out of synthesis. If i could manipulate a myriad of parameters to create my own percussion sounds i.e. timpanis, acoustic drum kits, etc. If it could offer a way to synthesize your own sounds, map it to a keyboard or E-kit, then I would be onboard.
The only situation I could see myself using modeled drums is if I could build my own drumset out of synthesis.
Which is basically what Pianoteq enables for modeled keyboard instruments. That's the primary reason I have it, personally.
Chopin87 wrote:How are keyboards linear? Do you still think we're stuck with note on-off? The possibility to shape the drum sound is infinite if you use midi cc and poly aftertouch. It really depends on the approach you take in designing and controlling the sound imho.
Okay sure, you can definitely use midi CC, breath controllers, roli keyboards etc. But to what end? For a live performance? As input data? It would be incredibly awkward to try and record a drum beat while blowing on a breath controller and playing keyboard, and having to blow for every part of the drun your hitting. This just physically doesnt make sense. For a drummer who wants to capture a performance, the main controller of choice is an E-kit. Full stop.
For anyone else who wants to synhesize drum sounds, theres an infinite numbers of ways to do that already. And for anyone who doesnt fall into either of those categories, a regular midi controller that triggers sampled libraries from Addictive Drums is more than enough.
There just really doesnt seem to be a need for 'Drumteq'. If this product is to be successful, Modart need to identify what their product can offer. More importantly, it needs to be able to make someone say 'wow i need this'. Im not sure why anyone would 'need' modeled drums over the myriad of options currently available.
The only situation I could see myself using modeled drums is if I could build my own drumset out of synthesis. If i could manipulate a myriad of parameters to create my own percussion sounds i.e. timpanis, acoustic drum kits, etc. If it could offer a way to synthesize your own sounds, map it to a keyboard or E-kit, then I would be onboard.
While I do agree on the performance aspect of the previous suggestion I do not agree on your conclusion. It is true that you can find a sound that satisfies you in the already existing libraries but I don't think that is a reason to cut out future products or development. Building a performance is what I think is missing in todays libraries and where Drumteq or whatever should kick in. In todays overcompressed stuff it might not make a difference but in certain styles expression is what makes percussion stand out. Also the possibilitis of modeling are just infinite. By opening modo drum which is just an attempt you get immediatly the feeling and the outstanding possibilities. Try to change a beater in your sample library or a mic. Unless you have everytime a sample for what you need or you mix every single kit piece, it's just a ton of work... In a virtual drum, just a click! And it's not lazyness or something, it's just the advantage of synth over samples. If you ask me a carefully written library beats tons of samples every single time. Be honest! How many sample libraries do you have for just drums? See where am I going? I hope so...
My opinion is that it doesn't take much for an electronic drum to overcome an acoustic drum. Obviously, I mean sound, not playability.
E-drum playability is constantly improving, so much so that sample libraries even the most recent additions are by far failing to keep up. Roland’s flagship drum module TD-50 that was unveiled in 2016 introduced both a digital ride and snare which permit increased drum and cymbal hit sensitivity. Additionally, positional sensing has been greatly improved. Although it has been available —via MIDI control change— on MIDI drums as far back as 1997, even Toontrack’s latest Superior Drummer V 3.1.4 allows a maximum of only three (3) head trigger zones. Which are center, off center and edge. Which means you have a grand total of a measly three spots on a drum head where you possibly can hit it to get a positionally determined sound sample. You have a very narrow window of opportunity opened to you for artistic expression, because of the limitations that are inherent in drum sample technology.
Drum modeling now has no such limitations!
https://youtu.be/jfSTqlUygcs
...I consider the timbre of acoustic drums to be extremely dirty, noisy, staggering and, in a way, non-musical.
While a youth I played a field drum as I marched behind a color guard in parades. So, I partly agree, both a drummer and the drum when attached to a sling and held by the drummer as he or she plays may often become overly exposed to dust and wind, but, no more than a brass player or anybody else a band or corps member. (Smile.)
Sometime before the first video (video A) Karen Carpenter was a member of a southern Califoria school marching band. She was a band member at a time just as many youth were. Only she along with her brother Richard Carpenter formed their own jazz trio that won a battle of the bands contest which was held at the Hollywood Bowl. Their careers took off from there.
As a former youth band member, I hear the Carpenters harmonies greatly affected by the marching bands and drum and bugle corps of the period. Some of top drum corps in the country were based in either Los Angeles or Orange County alone.
Now in all of California remains two and possibly a third. They now all have been based in the northern part of the state. The Blue Devils and Santa Clara Vanguards both based in California are national championship winning corps. The Vanguards (SVG) were actively competing throughout the state at the time of the video.
The second video (B) also of the Anaheim Kingsmen shows the drum corps as the Anaheim Kingsmen Alumni Corps comprised of the members in their adult years.
The featured voice of the last video (D) is that of Karen Carpenter. She was a musical singer and drummer too.
I don’t think real drums — in musical situations were real drums are required, that is — are in any immediate danger of being moved aside by virtual ones.
While there’s lots of good uses for virtual drums, and while these virtual ones, if programmed well, can be reasonably convincing (provided the drumpart isn’t too complicated), there’s still plenty about a real acoustic kit that remains completely unsampleable and unmodelable. Just as it is with a piano and most any other acoustic instrument. It’s that beautiful, incredibly complex, totally unpredictable, a-mathematical yet gorgeously balanced, organic and pleasing musical chaos of real instruments that’s still such a loooooooooong way removed from being captured in its entirety and convincingly in algorithms and/or samples.
In the case of drums, you can sample or model every single component in the finest possible detail (with any number of trigger zones you care to include), you may even sample or model infinite variations of bleed and resonances, and you’ll still end up with a kit that, in that peculiarly frustrating way that is so typical of all virtual instruments, just doesn’t ring true.
Simple example: even if you could model a single ride cymbal hit to perfection, that would still be a completely unconvincing and quite useless sound in a drumpart that has ride cymbal going on, because consecutive hits on a ride generate many additional layers of sound and shimmer that just aren’t present in the single hits. (This phenomenon is particularly noticeable in jazz ride playing, which also explains, in part anyway, why jazz drum playing is especially difficult to simulate decently with samples). And the same, or similar, considerations apply to all components of a drumkit and are multiplied in unfathomable numbers when considering the kit as a whole.
Not to mention the obstacle that, apart from the fact that a drumkit consists of several profoundly different instruments — each of which would require a modeling engine that’s much more powerful than the current Pianoteq or Organteq engines (consider the timbral and dynamic complexities of just the hi-hat) —, equally important is the interaction between these instruments AND the interaction with the space around them.
(The above TD50KV clip, for example, sounds utterly unrealistic to my ears. Again, I’m not suggesting there’s no musical use for this type of drums, but as an attempted illusion of a real kit, this sounds pretty ridiculous, I find. And I *am* a V-Drums fan.)
All this to say: despite the modeling genius of Modartt (and some other companies), I really don’t see truly convincing modeled drums becoming a reality any time soon. But that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t fully support and encourage an intrepid initiative in that direction.
_
I think drums are a instrument that could be improved on via physical modeling, I believe a physical modeled drum kit could sound as good and have the same control and sensitivity options as the real thing.
That genius at Pianoteq could do a good job.
I'm not interested in drum kits at all. Even the cheapest synths have had good drum sounds for 20 years or more. I'm far more interested in sweat sounding strings. But that has been poo poo'd before. The claim is the same. They already exist on synths, but good strings are difficult to synthesize. The best ones I ever had originated from a Roland Super Jupiter JX10 which was or is a digitally controlled analog synth. I never cared for my D-50 strings. Hardly used them. The JX-10 strings may not sound authentic, but it does create beautiful sound color washes something like a water color painting. It's my understanding that all of Enya's music was created on a single Roland D-50, but Wikipeda says this, "Her early works including Watermark feature numerous keyboards, including the Yamaha KX88 Master, Yamaha DX7, Oberheim Matrix, Akai S900, Roland D-50, and Roland Juno-60, the latter a particular favourite of hers."
I'm not interested in drum kits at all. Even the cheapest synths have had good drum sounds for 20 years or more. I'm far more interested in sweat sounding strings.
...But I still think a set of timpani would be obvious for Modartt to model
When they can imitate steel drums, there is not that long a way to timpani, please
I have a very promising snare app that capts strikes with a piezzo, (but also works with direct touch of a laptop structure or hit the table where it seats), and reproduces every subtilities of the snare, including brush and rim.
I think this is a better approach than full modelling when it comes to drums : transform any strike into a great sounding strike.
The app is https://www.chair.audio/product/excite_snare_drum/