Topic: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

https://forum.modartt.com/file/7967n2ul
https://forum.modartt.com/file/dk2rledc

Over the in the FXP Corner, I've put up a pair of examples of "straight strung" concert grands (sometimes also called "bird cage pianos").  One is an American Chickering 33B grand from the 1850s (probably from 1850), and the other is a modern Belgian Chris Maene CM284 concert grand from 2018/2019.

With Pianoteq's engine, achieving the feel of straight-strung instruments is a little harder to achieve than I expected.  Without the cross-over designed by Steinway, the instruments are generally clearer and quieter with less resonance, but in designing the presets, I couldn't achieve the right sound by eliminating the Sympathetic Resonance and Duplex Scaling but only by diminishing them significantly.  While it's very likely that some of the Kremsegg instruments, like the 1849 Erard, are straight strung, they also pre-date the design innovations of Chickering which including the more modern harp designs and other innovations that Steinway borrowed in his early Model A and D, which gives them a much more contemporary sound than the Erard from the same year.  Because of this, I opted for the 1924 Erard (which is overstrung) which fit very well to match the sound of the 33B Chickering grand I came across recently.

Chickering was the main American piano maker before Steinway, and Steinway used a lot of the design innovations of Chickering in their own early instruments.  Prior to coming to American, Steinway was better known for his square pianos (and yes I'd love some more historical square piano options in PTQ for historical performance and experimentation) and in designing new instruments borrowed the single piece cast iron harp and the overstringing of bass strings across the most resonant part of the soundboard and under sympathetic strings, which are much of the basis of the modern piano design and sound.

Chickering continued to manufacture pianos until 1908 when they became part of the American Piano Company (Ampico), and in later years Chickerings were made by Wurlitzer (who made my former 1928 upright) and then by Baldwin.  After 1983, no new Chickerings have been made, and I would assume--like Baldwin--the marque is owned by Gibson.

Chris Maene specialize in creating new historical instruments (copies of Beethoven's Erard Pianoforte, an 1817 Broadwood Pianoforte, an 1849 Pleyel Concert Grand, etc.) and in a modern design of Straight Strung Concert Grand for historical performance.  Originally the Concert Grand was commissioned by Daniel Barenboim (unveiled in 2015 I believe) and is featured in several of his Deutsche Gramaphone albums (one Debussy solo album and a chamber album), and the instrument and several variations (a Chamber Grand of 250cm and Parlor Grand of 228cm) are now in general production and circulation throughout Europe since 2018.  There are a few recordings and concerts already on these instruments, and they have a very nice sound with a noticeably different touch than most grands.  All of the CM series are 90 keys from GGG to c'''', similar to some of the Imperial line from Bösendorfer.

Both the Chickering and Chris Maene also have significantly more damper travel the overstrung instruments which changes the tone and sustain pedal response.  While I miss the "rumble of the piano" that the Russian school of playing and my own technique depends on (my favorite statement on Russian technique was from Vadim Monastyrski "любите рояля гул" or "love the rumble of the piano"), I really enjoy these presets for Scandinavian, early German, and French music on both of these straight-strung instruments--like Stenhammar, Wiklund, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Alkan, and Chopin.

Video of the making of the Chris Maene https://youtu.be/CO7xWoIRrE0
More about Chickering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickering_%26_Sons
More on straight-strung vs overstrung: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-stringing

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Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

Thanks for creating and posting this. (I have a later, cross-strung Chickering 116.) Could you post a demo or two using the fxp? Sometimes it's hard to know what sound one should expect--you may have a particular type of music in mind.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (27-01-2020 17:21)

Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

Fabulous FXPs to play with!  In some ways like David Klavins' Unacorda piano with their clean sounds.  The only thing in real life that I have tried like this was my friend's 1862 or 18633 Pleyel that she had bought as a living room furniture prop, and I decided NOT to adopt and NOT to restore (but, though out of tune, it had an interestingly clean sound as well): 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/FWxoBsoVNbWJbVB16

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Pleyel.mp3

- David

Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

I like these and your previous uploaded FXPs but there is a disparity in the comments for the American Steinway (multiple Earthworks PM40 mics) and what I see in the Sound Recording section (2 mics). There is the mention of an Earthworks PM40 mini preset (mfxp file). Shouldn't you upload those separately in the shared files section for completeness.

I don't think they are saved along with the FXP file, though the manual is silent about this... In the shared files, you can see some previously uploaded mfxp files for mics by David (dklein)

Same for the Baldwins where you mention multiple mics and I see only two.

Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

Gilles wrote:

I don't think they are saved along with the FXP file, though the manual is silent about this...

Charming... *facepalm*

Thank you for catching that!  I wondered why nobody had anything to say about the Earthworks presets...  (Thank you for the compliment as well!)

My tests of loading the FXP file seemed to show the mic profiles were retained, but I was testing on the same computer, not a separate computer with a clean PTQ installation.

I've uploaded the mic presets separately.  They're in the Shared files area.

Useful for close miking of semi-concert and concert grands (two side pairs and one close room mic): https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...20Mic.mfxp
My default concert hall miking (one main pair, one side pair, and one room mic): https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Pairs.mfxp
Recital miking (one close pair, one wide pair, and one room mic): https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...0wide.mfxp
Earthworks PM40 (one pair near the dampers, one pair near the middle, and one room mic): https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...0PM40.mfxp

I recommend the first one for the Gaveau Semi-Concert 1959 and the second for the Gaveau Concert 1960.  I'll go link to them in-place.
I recommend the second or third for the Chris Maene.
I recommend the third on the Chickering.

Though, any mic preset should work with anything depending on the effect one wants.

I'll do my best to always get the mic settings and FXPs linked together in forum posts from now on, to try to prevent this--since it doesn't seem to daisy-chain all settings in FXP files.  Maybe there is a way to do it in the settings, but I haven't found one yet.  Thank you again for calling this to my attention!

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Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

dklein wrote:

Fabulous FXPs to play with!  In some ways like David Klavins' Unacorda piano with their clean sounds.  The only thing in real life that I have tried like this was my friend's 1862 or 18633 Pleyel that she had bought as a living room furniture prop, and I decided NOT to adopt and NOT to restore (but, though out of tune, it had an interestingly clean sound as well)

What a prop for a living room!

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Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

tmyoung wrote:

I'll do my best to always get the mic settings and FXPs linked together in forum posts from now on, to try to prevent this--since it doesn't seem to daisy-chain all settings in FXP files.  Maybe there is a way to do it in the settings, but I haven't found one yet.  Thank you again for calling this to my attention!

No problem!

In fact the mini presets content can be included in the FXPs as long as you remember to save them together. Of course the idea to have a mini preset manager is to have a collection of various settings to experiment with by interchanging, so it's easy to forget to make a final FXP of the result. One other dangling thing for which there is no solution is convolution reverb impulse files...I see you use some of those and of course my display says "file not found". In this case, the file can be large and that's probably why it is never included in the preset.

Last edited by Gilles (28-01-2020 18:57)

Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

Jake Johnson wrote:

Thanks for creating and posting this. (I have a later, cross-strung Chickering 116.) Could you post a demo or two using the fxp? Sometimes it's hard to know what sound one should expect--you may have a particular type of music in mind.

I'll see what I can get uploaded tomorrow as far as samples/mp3s.

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Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

Gilles wrote:

In fact the mini presets content can be included in the FXPs as long as you remember to save them together. Of course the idea to have a mini preset manager is to have a collection of various settings to experiment with by interchanging, so it's easy to forget to make a final FXP of the result. One other dangling thing for which there is no solution is convolution reverb impulse files...I see you use some of those and of course my display says "file not found". In this case, the file can be large and that's probably why it is never included in the preset.

Is there an "export full FXP" option?  I just upload the FXP from my presets folder on my computer.  I don't know of another way to do it, even from the Presets Manager.  If there isn't one, it definitely would be nice.

I will also see what I can do on the Convolution files: my guess is that PTQ doesn't omnibus them because of possible licensing issues.  The ones I use are (or were) freely available, but I don't know if I have rights to distribute them and the original source website (Samplicity) was down/gone last time I checked.  There is a legacy link for them though that still works:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190201211...responses/

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Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

tmyoung wrote:

Is there an "export full FXP" option?  I just upload the FXP from my presets folder on my computer.  I don't know of another way to do it, even from the Presets Manager.  If there isn't one, it definitely would be nice.

I will also see what I can do on the Convolution files: my guess is that PTQ doesn't omnibus them because of possible licensing issues.  The ones I use are (or were) freely available, but I don't know if I have rights to distribute them and the original source website (Samplicity) was down/gone last time I checked.  There is a legacy link for them though that still works:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190201211...responses/

That's strange. There is only one way of saving an FXP and it should save everything except impulse files. I just tested by creating a mics mini preset, loading it onto an fxp, saving the fxp and removing the mini preset completely. If I restart pianoteq and load that saved fxp, the name of the removed mics preset appears in italic as it should, but the content is there.

For impulse files, if the name is one of those well-known public files (like the Samplicity) then we only have to find it and load it ourselves, no need to furnish it. Only when it is custom would it be nice to upload it.

Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

That's just strange, because whenever I try to load the file across two computers, the velocity curve and mic presets reset to default.  Perhaps it's a bug related to how I use mic presets, because--in the past--I've made sure that my mic settings are saved to their own preset, so it's possible that because I have an unedited mic preset file on my machine as a sidecar file, the preset manager doesn't think that it has to store mic or velocity data.  If that's the case, we probably want to change that behavior in PTQ or add an "export preset" function instead of the default save as.

I've made new version of the Gaveau pianos with some minor changes, and I'm curious if the mic settings now appear in those.

If those loaded the Microphone data correctly, I'll re-upload the rest using a workaround for this bug.  If it didn't work, then it's back to the drawing board, I guess...

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Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

Hopefully it worked...at least these FXPs are both roughly 5kb larger, which I assume means the microphone data is inside.  I'm not sure if the velocity data is in there though, but I don't know that it matters, since I usually use my keyboard's profile.  It would be nice if we had two velocity curves, one for the keyboard and one to augment the feel of the action.  While yes, we can do that elsewhere in PTQ, we can't do as elegantly as the velocity curve.  Having a "pre-velocity curve" or "action response curve" that we can port between installs without overwriting our keyboard velocity settings would be a nice addition!

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Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

tmyoung wrote:

That's just strange, because whenever I try to load the file across two computers, the velocity curve and mic presets reset to default.  Perhaps it's a bug related to how I use mic presets, because--in the past--I've made sure that my mic settings are saved to their own preset, so it's possible that because I have an unedited mic preset file on my machine as a sidecar file, the preset manager doesn't think that it has to store mic or velocity data.  If that's the case, we probably want to change that behavior in PTQ or add an "export preset" function instead of the default save as.

I've made new version of the Gaveau pianos with some minor changes, and I'm curious if the mic settings now appear in those.

If those loaded the Microphone data correctly, I'll re-upload the rest using a workaround for this bug.  If it didn't work, then it's back to the drawing board, I guess...

I just uploaded your very fine 1959 Gaveau fxp (marvelous piano rolls) on a different computer where I have no mfxp files and everything loaded correctly, mics and velocity curve. The fxp contains everything.

Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

Gilles wrote:

I just uploaded your very fine 1959 Gaveau fxp (marvelous piano rolls) on a different computer where I have no mfxp files and everything loaded correctly, mics and velocity curve. The fxp contains everything.

Yay! Thank you for checking!

I'll get updated versions of the rest, including the ones above, along with samples uploaded in the next few days.

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Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

tmyoung -

For a pre-preset velocity curve to help you out, check out the program VelPro from https://springbeats.com/ .  It has given me exactly what I needed to 'tune' my keyboard's velocity response upstream from Pianoteq, so that the Pianoteq velocity curves are now free to be applied for artistic or functional effect as envisioned by each FXP's creator (for example, a functional effect would be a flat curve similar to what you would get when playing an organ, with only Off and On and no per-keystrike dynamics). 

The new version of VelPro also allows saving of multiple curves, so you can have different versions of your keyboard response that are harder and softer, applicable across not only Pianoteq and Organteq but also any other program downstream in your arsenal, such as Native Instruments VSTs.

- David

Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

@tmyoung - Just a thank you tm, for such a good set of pianos - all very complete alternative sounds off the bat

@David - I'm beginning to like the idea of a secondary curve more and more.

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Re: Straight Strung Chickering and Chris Maene FXPs

@Qexl - Thank you very much!

@David - Oooo...Nice!  I'll take a closer look at that, and yes, as I continue to think about it we need an extra layer/curve/filter.

---

Updated FXPs with new mics and slight changes to spectrum profiles.
https://forum.modartt.com/file/3uubdoen
https://forum.modartt.com/file/cen4y8op

New audio samples from some piano rolls too (the middle one is Rachmaninoff playing his Elegie from Op. 3)
https://forum.modartt.com/download.php?id=3694
https://forum.modartt.com/download.php?id=3697
https://forum.modartt.com/download.php?id=3696

While it's a little hard to compare an arranged piano roll with a full orchestra performance, this video may be of interest:
https://youtu.be/nrvPf4yiEuA?t=767

Update: fixed video link...

Last edited by tmyoung (10-02-2020 17:20)
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