Help With Pianoteq Stage Settings

I think you should definitely attach the MIDI file and also the FXP(Pianoteq config) file that you have best results with, and then describe what you dislike about it.

calvolutionaryanimal wrote:

Hello everybody,

This is my first post here.  I purchased Pianoteq Stage earlier this year with hopes of using it for my album.  I didn't have the budget for standard at the time and I thought I could make do with default settings during my demoing.  I picked the Steinway B as one of the instruments as that was my favorite out of all of them.

Anyway, I am now getting down to mixing my album, and I just can't seem to get the sound I am looking for out of it.  I've tweaked velocity settings to no end, adjusted EQs, reverb, changed presets, and I am just not sure if I am doing the right things or if it is possible to get what I want out of Stage.  Logically, I feel like it should be possible, but I don't know for sure.

Anyway, I am looking for an intimate and present sound with a lot of definition and detail.  I'd also really like to hear the spread of the piano keys between the left and the right speakers more than I am (if that makes sense).  I'm looking for a good amount of color and lushness.

Instead, I can't seem to escape a very dull and fairly narrow sound (I've tried both stereophonic and sound recording) that is thunky, lacks definition, and does not sound nearly as authentic as any of the demos I've previously heard.

I really don't understand what I am doing wrong but I would be grateful if any of you have some suggestions of things to try.  I had some really high hopes with Pianoteq and don't want to give up on it quite yet.  I do not have plans to upgrade to Standard as I really just can't afford to keep putting money into virtual instruments anymore.  I have multiple other piano libraries that I thought were "the one" so I just need to try to make this work.

Anyway, I thought I would start this off more general and, if needed, I can post some examples and settings if needed.  I can also attach my piano midi file if any of you wants to experiment with it.  Just let me know.

Thanks in advance!

When you say mixing do I take it your working in a DAW and using Pianoteq along with other instruments? If this is the case then a few things to try, firstly reduce Pianoteq volume to make it blend better rather than standout. Another thing would be to try a more random approach with your piano preset choice, sometimes preconceptions don't always help, try for example the Graf piano (presuming stage allows 440 tuning adjustments if your working in concert pitch) or a cinematic Steinway? If you are recording solo piano then if for example you are step timing the notes this will not be natural. Just a few ideas but volume was always the main area for clean mixing, over eq for me personally

calvolutionaryanimal wrote:

MeDorian wrote:

When you say mixing do I take it your working in a DAW and using Pianoteq along with other instruments? If this is the case then a few things to try, firstly reduce Pianoteq volume to make it blend better rather than standout. Another thing would be to try a more random approach with your piano preset choice, sometimes preconceptions don't always help, try for example the Graf piano (presuming stage allows 440 tuning adjustments if your working in concert pitch) or a cinematic Steinway? If you are recording solo piano then if for example you are step timing the notes this will not be natural. Just a few ideas but volume was always the main area for clean mixing, over eq for me personally

Thanks for your reply and feedback!  Yeah, I am currently using Pianoteq inside my mix.  I did move the tuning slightly over to not be perfect.  I can't seem to get the volume where I want it, though.  I've reduced the dynamic levels to make things a bit more consistent.  Things just still sound dull and muddy to me.  EQ doesn't seem to remedy that much.  I've also tried a bunch of random presets in hopes of finding something that worked in that area.  I know the presets have different mic positions and whatnot, so I was definitely open to trying those.

The tuning is regarding the Graf, not sure if it's 415? As for the sound, just keep trying as you are, I did edit my last post with a suggestion for turning off Pianoteq's reverb and using the global DAW reverb

If the examples on the site sound good to you, then use these presets, which are indicated for the presets.

calvolutionaryanimal wrote:

MeDorian wrote:

The tuning is regarding the Graf, not sure if it's 415? As for the sound, just keep trying as you are, I did edit my last post with a suggestion for turning off Pianoteq's reverb and using the global DAW reverb

Oh yeah I didn't notice the edit.  Yeah, I generally opt for using my own reverb and EQ outside of Pianoteq although I've been entertaining them a bit more today as I was wondering if they might help in any capacity.

Stating the obvious but you do have the DAW channels for Pianoteq set hard left and right? Sorry for this in advance!

calvolutionaryanimal wrote:

MeDorian wrote:

Stating the obvious but you do have the DAW channels for Pianoteq set hard left and right? Sorry for this in advance!

That's a totally fair question!  I think so?  I didn't calibrate anything specifically but the plugin is inserted on a stereo track in the DAW so I figured that it would OK.  I do hear stereo in the track itself.  It's just not very wide.  Exploring your question further, I don't suppose there are specific settings in Pianoteq I need to account for this?

The panning should be ok then, then again I'm old school and do remember fx sends can also alter the panning?

For anyone who wants to hear a default preset with compression and equalization added into a mix of it (although essentially unmodified in itself, with the only exception being a disengaged Pianoteq limiter) and get a new idea of truly boundless possibilities even from a default,  I am including a link reference to a post topic of mine: Engineering Pianoteq Steinway B Close Mic Preset.

The post includes a variety of tracks newly rendered from the preset and outside (third {3rd} party plugins).

Please, leave a comment.

calvolutionaryanimal wrote:

MeDorian wrote:

The panning should be ok then, then again I'm old school and do remember fx sends can also alter the panning?

Yeah I think perhaps an expander could work with that.  I grew up using 4-tracks as well!  Tascam 424.

Good to hear you've some analogue experience (not always good though?) Is there perhaps an instrument in the mix that occupies the same central position? Also if all the other instruments are very widely panned then this might make pianoteq sound flat in the mix?

I once tried an extension plugin a long time ago.  There was even a video left for an example.  It is impossible to play live through it.  But for a mix, it can be useful.

https://youtu.be/ADDh4sXymX0

I've tweaked velocity settings to no end, adjusted EQs, reverb, changed presets, and I am just not sure if I am doing the right things or if it is possible to get what I want out of Stage

I am looking for an intimate and present sound with a lot of definition and detail.  I'd also really like to hear the spread of the piano keys between the left and the right speakers more than I am (if that makes sense).  I'm looking for a good amount of color and lushness

Hey calvolutionaryanimal, good questions and fine advice from everyone!

calvolutionaryanimal wrote:

I've tweaked velocity settings to no end, adjusted EQs, reverb, changed presets, and I am just not sure if I am doing the right things or if it is possible to get what I want out of Stage

Not knowing your situation (recording deal, time or budget limits etc.) but what you describe there seems a pre-production issue. It's common to have glitches - but if you're at mixdown, presumably with a dealine or others pressuring you to complete and so on, it's kind of like being on a tight-rope wire juggling plates with monkeys climbing all over you right?

Charlie Chaplin - click from all the fun of the circus

But - perhaps counter intuitively, try to relax and work through - don't let pressure take hold - always go back to defaults (sanity check).. then try your edits again, with way less big moves on the sliders, going softly with compressions and other tools etc.. honestly - the more you go with any edit, the more likely you're doctoring up a pretend piano.. so lots of light changes usually add up to a better personalised tweak (if the goal is realism). But if the goal is post modern or abstract - by all means break the sliders to get experimental.

If your audio (even after EQ?? honestly, this is an area which is certainly more about time spent than it being about things 'not possible') sounds flat, and not wide enough or other things annoying you, no better advice other than take your time, don't panic (mixing/producing isn't overnight mad skillz, esp. with a new instrument which is why I'd recommend breaking your recordings into pre-production and post) and it may just be you've got a fine idea in mind that just doesn't work for a given mix like others mention. There most certainly will be an answer, just that you haven't yet hit on it

From what you've written, sounds like your dislike for your sound of the piano extends from your production choices so far (piano track as much as the others). So as above, maybe begin again from defaults and be gentle with Pianoteq tweaks, as with your production chain.

We can seriously over do everything - and think "This should sound amazing by now! I turned everything UP!" It's so much more about balances and as much about reductive work, mixing.

Maybe the audio tools or your DAW are causing you issues? I'll give some recommendations based on coming from earlier analog times..

Example of audio excerpts would be helpful though to make really specific constructive crit. Otherwise, this is just general stuff but maybe some things stick.

As much as I've taken to the digital world, I've been slowly replacing analog ways of working with digital since early 90s so I'm thinking maybe you share some things in common - and maybe some things I've experienced which I found positive can be things you've maybe worked around and missed or so on. I am currently in recent times extremely happy to be fully digital - and I'm sure you can't be left with a bad piano track using Pianoteq, unless something is out of place in your way of working - and hopefully you'll find a remedy soon from all the words of help from myself the others who offered some good help here.

If you love analog days - get some good analog replication plugins if you haven't already (I love Waves for that area - they actually have become my most used over time and like good analog gear, the allow a plethora of production outcomes for me. Not to say 'digital world' only tools can't be also a perfect fit for me too - I love the sound and to be fair, so do other humans buying music after all). I love the art of blending digital chicanery with things anchored in analog territory. You can do this with some tools - but honestly, just having a compressor or some other tools engaged is not in itself helpful without a bit of an artists brush making the strokes happen - or choice of colours.. so again, just take your time and let things happen, take breaks away to avoid ear fatigue.. time away from the mix can be the best single thing, a day or a week or more if time permits, serious. Doing something else or another mix can free your angst about it and allow your sub-conscious mind dream about it until it's boiled

I had a series of those Tascams at home (memories... couple of the 4 tracks in the 80s and an 8 track later in the 90s). They were not just quick and easy but they had a quite complete sound and I'm always thankful about how those decks made ideas so easy to capture at such good quality.. I really didn't enjoy the transition to fully digital at times post 2000 (really missed proper tape saturation - skipped DAT), and still really fondly remember those machines. My first 4 track got me used to the brutal decision making required when having to bounce tracks before I got to work on larger desks with less restrictions and better sound.. ping pong anyone? I still love to occasionally lock things down with a bounce in a DAW too - to help limit the crazy limitless choices available with digital working environments (or, if dead ended, mix down to 1 and consider it a loop (or give it its own group FX) and/or make it just a support track to subtly or brutally mix in during chorus or such). If you've worked with limited tracks in the past, there's nothing stopping us revisiting the sense of that White knuckle decisions can be inspiring - yet we can keep backup versions as a nice advantage of digital - same tight-rope but with a safety net.

FWIW, I kind of feel at home replicating somewhat the analog mixing days using Studio One and Waves plugins (nice hardware sims). Over all DAWs and plugin combos over decades, absolutely I feel this setup allows me to feel like I'm working quite the same way - with real improvements (not crawling around in cables for one). I find it inspiring and the engineering of those tools = like Pianoteq, I feel excellence from the ground up. Doesn't mean I don't also love Ableton or others too (I've sunk too much time into dozens of DAWs and probably thousands of digital tools) for their various reasons.. just thinking that worth mentioning since you began from 4 track too - as this is where I ended up: Studio One, Waves plugins - with of course still dozens of others - but at the top? I love the combo - it feels almost complete for my requirements and I use other tools less, as I love using these more.

Also, in some ways I like to push for things my ears used to like (good tape saturation! which I definitely pushed too far with the Tascams) and so on.. so maybe, you're hoping to make some particular sound (which you will find ways to accomplish I'm certain) but, you can easily go wide of it if you're missing something or trying too much of everything too (maybe a DAW setting even? like sample rates, mis-matched things like that can hurt everything esp. if not working in 32bit float mode - you might be missing a bunch of down-sampling somewhere, or a particular plugin has a super-specific overlooked setting like a too hard knee or something..).

For widening? Be careful I'd suggest - it's a production decision in a mix and unless good 'mix reason' for it, it can make things sound less rather than more.. you might imagine "wider and wider is better" but.. a mix will likely tell you instantly.. "OK I got that out of shape.. doesn't work" - you may find a more narrow piano dimension or pushed a little left or right, sharing stage with another instrument or something will breath better real-life into the song? A crazy wide keyboard B/A may sound fake and nothing will make it sound right for every mix.

Component parts matter as much as how fantastic and instrument sounds by itself in isolation - and often to make something fit, reality dictates that it's often a careful trade off of ideas (or general preferences) like taking off some trebles or bass, or softening attack, highly sculpting EQ with subtractive work etc.

If you think EQ cannot solve something, that just means, you do need to work on EQ more - or find EQ tools you like to work with better.. again something from Waves makes my day no matter the idea.. like the F6? Not to push it, but I find too many people wanting a better mix saying things like EQ doesn't help things.. but to me, that translates to "I need to spend more time with EQ".. you'll get this surely with time - do not give up on what EQ can gain you! (or subtract for you

calvolutionaryanimal wrote:

I am looking for an intimate and present sound with a lot of definition and detail.  I'd also really like to hear the spread of the piano keys between the left and the right speakers more than I am (if that makes sense).  I'm looking for a good amount of color and lushness

Here's a widening trick I post about every now and again, without putting the widening primarily on the main piano but offloading that job to reverb with some tweaks so to not obscure close and present lower velocity notes - might help..

You make 1 track for Pianoteq.

Track 2 for FX send/return.

No reverb on your track 1. Heavy reverb of choice on track 2 *you mix this back in to whatever level works.

Make the Pianoteq preset slightly narrower in stereo if it helps.

Make the track 2 wider (whatever tool works for you - beware sometimes again, too wide is just mumbo-jumbo to the brain - but that can be fun in electronica - not so much for a real piano sound). Balance the FX return. MIX this to a new track once your mix is 'final stage' and you can then delete the FX and make no mistake (of forgetting it if you want - or just make a new version of the song without it.. we all work differently) when sending to master.. have done that.. lovely fine details may not be exported if your FX send/return settings change and so on.. so, like the 'destructive' editing of ye olden days.. you can now have 2 tracks of piano plus FX bounced to one track perhaps.

That kind of thing can make the piano more present and the reverb more like it's a real space in the background - experiment with IR reverb types, long or short.. tones and reflections etc.

I might also apply a gate to that reverb sometimes (re intimate sound), so that reverb is not always on and increases with more velocity filling the space most at those times, can help blending in mix - subtle is the word but you can go monster with any of this for sure if it works too.. so softer notes surface better and the piano seems like it melts into the space at higher velocities. There's no single settings, just the notion and playing with all the elements can give you a bajillion different results - but hope the idea helps you in working with ideas like this in your mixing.. I feel there's nothing you can't do with Pianoteq and some proper DAW tools, some old school habits even.

So, that's basic and doesn't mention other tools - but in Waves, for example, the SSL chanel strip = pretty fine - the NSL desks is art itself! The Abbey Road stuff (well maybe all of it) is kind of must-have at least for my way of working. The chambers/plates/desk emulators (esp. their Mid Side processing) are sublime. Certainly multitudinous other tools are great too - just giving a small list of things maybe helpful to this situation, esp. if you're in a jam for time - those tools might make sense quickly, have real world 'feel' and I think can be used without having to dive into the digital expanses.. some good and usable boundaries really.

Hoping your mix goes well - just take some time, enjoy the process, don't panic too much - and best of all keep on leaning in to the digital choices, I finally jumped in fully over time and find the water's pretty damn fine.. with a break, reflection and maybe some tools or ideas from everyone here, you'll get to where you want with your album, I'm so sure of it.

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

The point I’m making is, PIANOTEQ Stage (formerly Play) as its new name implies, seems now geared (with its minimalistic interface) to the gigging keyboardists who need something right away at various live performance venues, where a lot of individual preset tweaks are impractical, since gigging musicians hop to hop from locations having different acoustics.  Although PIANOTEQ Stage is still suitable for beginner keyboardists, as it’s an introductory VST for anyone just getting into a virtual instrument, or just learning to play. 

PIANOTEQ Standard was more suited to piano players at homes than it was to one out at a club, since its interface was always daunting in that it took up larger screen area; although after an update a small interface is optional; it permits piano parameter play piano players appreciate.  They each make parameter adjustments to presets precisely to practice and play at a personalized piano within a personal surrounding, a home place.

PIANOTEQ PRO has been intended inside professional applications, like a DAW mix, mostly.  You get it if you want to produce music for mass consumption or that might take NARAS awards.

Ok so you believe it won't be possible to tweak stage enough to sound convincing. I've kinda come to that conclusion on my own lately. I just thought I world reach out here just in case I was missing anything.

Thanks for chiming in.