Topic: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

I just visited Steingraeber's page regarding using a transducer fed with Pianoteq. I noticed they have added some new videos and thought some of you might be interested:
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

I just visited Steingraeber's page regarding using a transducer fed with Pianoteq. I noticed they have added some new videos and thought some of you might be interested:
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/

Woaw, really cool! I think it sounds amazing, perhaps even better than Kawai and Yamahas transacoustic and Aures lines and with the flexibility with Pianoteq. One thing I wonder with these instruments, how does it work if the acoustic strings are not in tune with the digital source? I guess the pedal releases the dampers so there is real string resonance...?

Last edited by johanibraaten (18-12-2019 15:26)

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

Very interesting indeed! These videos sound much better than the 2017 live performance ones that were somewhat disappointing in my opinion. And Part 5 answered a question I had about superposing (or not) Pianoteq's soundboard frequency response with the real one. They actually adjust the transducer position and response so as to have the flattest possible response, to make the entire piano body into a high fidelity loudspeaker in a way. That's why the Steingraeber can also interact with other software without any modification.

This is not perfect of course, I can hear some coloring of Pianoteq's sound when it plays through the real soundboard, but not that much. It's almost impossible to hide the fact that it is a piece of wood that is sounding...

I also saw the dampers moving when playing only Pianoteq. I guess the strings are completely muted by the lever the player uses so the action does its thing but the strings don't react at all.

A fine collaboration.

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

Gilles wrote:

I also saw the dampers moving when playing only Pianoteq. I guess the strings are completely muted by the lever the player uses so the action does its thing but the strings don't react at all.

There is a part 2-video on the subject up now where the pianist describes actual acoustic string resonance with the digital source:
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

johanibraaten wrote:
Gilles wrote:

I also saw the dampers moving when playing only Pianoteq. I guess the strings are completely muted by the lever the player uses so the action does its thing but the strings don't react at all.

There is a part 2-video on the subject up now where the pianist describes actual acoustic string resonance with the digital source:
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/

Yes I saw the entire series. In fact the three titles in the page give all possibilities:

1- Without Strings / With Hammer Stop: This is for playing only Pianoteq (or another software synth)
2- With Strings / Without Hammer Stop: This where the piano strings and Pianoteq can mix and resonate together as in the multi-temperament example.
3- For Playback: Plays MIDI files on the real piano as for the Yamaha Disklavier.

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

Fantastic - this is such a fine time in the history of the development of the piano.

I'm extremely proud of Philippe (To be titled a piano sound guru by Steingraeber is immaculate praise well deserved and his ongoing work is certainly foundational in so many ways which many here will know) and Modartt and the SWR Experimentalstudio and not least, Steingraeber for taking note of modern inherent desires for revelling in the inspiration provided by both the real piano and accompanying tech. Not only have they taken the mission seriously but substantively placed monumental markers for the world of piano manufacturing to sail towards in time.

It says so much that a piano house with such a history as Steingraeber takes such a confident aproach to combinations of tech to continue to develop what is 'the piano'. Rather than worrying that tech will make physical pianos less desirable, they are instead proving just how relevant their piano is, as it stands and into the future.

Praise without holding back, I know but when I see this, I cannot help but note that it is such a rare gift to the world that it should be cherished, for all humanity (Honestly, imagine a great composer from the past having these 'both world' luxuries, tuning possibilities etc - what would Beethoven et al say? Likely similar things said by Simon Vincent here in the videos).

As an aside, the second half of Part 5 was really enjoyable for the conversation between Simon Vincent (Composer) and Michael Acker about the Steingraeber piano with system being apparently simple on viewing, yet having the Devil in the detail (amusingly, the same Devil across the Chanel).

Another eye opener, was learning (also from Part 5) that transducer tech was patented in 1905. Today, thanks to Philippe there's software more than worthy of controlling such a piano in utterly realistic fashion (for me nothing else can approach the levels of realism and playability, nothing new to say this). Astounding when you consider all of the trails of discovery converging in this way.

This kind of piano by Steingraeber is truly the stuff of dreams, realised for our times - congratulations to all who foresaw the possibilities and achieved it. Truly magic work which does not go unappreciated.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

I tried to compare the resonances of a Pianoteq with a piano in my house.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...20Symp.mp3

Piano:
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...20Symp.mp3

It is noticeable that the sound resonance tail of a piano is longer. It dies out slower and lasts longer. You can increase the level of impedance and sympathetic resonance in the Pianoteq settings.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...ymp%2B.mp3

Then you can get a similar duration and level of attenuation at the resonant tail. But then the attack of sound disappears. The attack begins to merge with the sound of resonances. It's hard to play with these settings.
How can I customize? So that the attack would be as with the usual Pianoteq settings, and the resonance sound be longer?

It was Bechstein.
It turned out that Steinway has a more similar effect of resonance. With default settings. Bechstein fades too quickly ..

Piano:
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...0Symp2.mp3

Steinway:
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...0Stein.mp3

Bechstein:
https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...20Bech.mp3

(In the examples, I pinched the white keys C1-C2.)

Last edited by scherbakov.al (19-12-2019 14:33)

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

Re: Steingraeber Transducer piano.
Indeed very exciting, fascinating stuff. I can see this being embraced by contemporary composers and also musicians exploring historical and experimental tunings, no doubt.
I would like to find out how much a Pianoteq preset has to be modified to blend in with the natural resonances of the Steingraeber soundboard, frame, etc. Really curious about how the Pianoteq parameters used by Simon Vincent look like! I can only guess that one typically turns down a lot of resonance parameters? If Phillipe reads this: are you allowed to share an fpx file ?

Also,  many questions come to mind. For one thing, it seems to me that using a specific piano as a "speaker" kind of goes against the inherent flexibility of physical modelling. For instance, If a performer  wants to play a Steinway or Bechstein or Pleyel Pianoteq model on the Transducer piano, I am pretty sure that it would not sound quite right!  I realize that the transducers can be moved, but it's probably not something one would do routinely, and even less in a live performance...

On the question of "amplifying" the Steingraeber natural sound: it can probably be useful...for a relatively small increase. As BM and Qexl (IIRC) have pointed out in these pages, the sound of a grand piano is already quite loud, so amplifying it further would risk being quite uncomfortable for the player! Unless this is used mostly for playback of a prerecorded performance.

Don't get me wrong: I think that this stuff is very interesting, even just from a research point of view. Is it the future of piano and other acoustic instruments? In some form or another, probably. However, I am of the opinion that  physical modelling itself, like in Pianoteq, has the potential to create (or re-create!) the acoustic properties themselves, and that we have yet to develop the kind of neutral, versatile transducers/speakers capable of enveloping the performer/listener in the proper sound environment.

Last edited by aWc (20-12-2019 18:35)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

This really is fantastic.  And, like aWc asked, how do the presets sound played on a real soundboard instead of on a 'neutral' speaker?  Philippe, since the Steingraeber presets are made to emulate the sound of an acoustic Steingraeber as heard through its own soundboard, do the Steingraeber presets for the piano differ from the ones we have with regular Pianoteq?  Are some of the soundboard characteristics subtracted away?  Otherwise, its a bit like a reflection of me, looking in the mirror at me looking at that reflection.

- David

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

dklein wrote:

This really is fantastic.  And, like aWc asked, how do the presets sound played on a real soundboard instead of on a 'neutral' speaker?  Philippe, since the Steingraeber presets are made to emulate the sound of an acoustic Steingraeber as heard through its own soundboard, do the Steingraeber presets for the piano differ from the ones we have with regular Pianoteq?  Are some of the soundboard characteristics subtracted away?  Otherwise, its a bit like a reflection of me, looking in the mirror at me looking at that reflection.

You are of course right that using a soundboard instead of a 'neutral' speaker brings some additional color to the sound. I don't know exactly how that has been compensated here (several solutions can be involved, from EQ to adapted impulse), this should be asked to Michael Acker who did all the fine tuning of Pianoteq for that particular use.

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

I see - the guy interviewed in the fifth video, from the outside engineering firm.  Thanks.  Is he who contacted you guys originally? 

It is fabulous that a piano manufacturer, with all of the best of their best to sample, had the vision to use a modeled Pianoteq solution to achieve their hybrid piano.  No doubt this helps for more accurate micromodal tunings, etc., that can't be realistically achieved by 'tone shifting' sampled sounds, the way that musicians now use Autotune on their voices, etc.  Synthesis and Modelling is better than sampling.

- David

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

dklein wrote:

I see - the guy interviewed in the fifth video, from the outside engineering firm.  Thanks.  Is he who contacted you guys originally?

If I remember correctly, he was using Pianoteq at SWR Experimental Studio (Germany) and mentioned us to Steingraeber.

Re: Steingraeber using a transducer fed with Pianoteq

That's too awesome!