Topic: strings of one note vertical and.and weird overtones
Sometimes there are strings of one note in which the partial lines do not coincide. They can not be set up in pure unison.
Sometimes there are strings of one note in which the partial lines do not coincide. They can not be set up in pure unison.
....and? Pianos would sound like crap if all strings of a note would be set to exactly the same pitch.
You have just re-discovered the concept of "inharmonicity" (IH) in a piano.
IH occurs because the piano's strings are made out of a strong metal such as cold-drawn steel wire. When the ends of these wires are held fixed at each end, they are not free to vibrate as a "perfect length of string". By these piano strings being strong and rigid and constrained at their very ends, the higher harmonics are forced to resonate at "higher" frequencies than what the Pythagorean mathematics would predict.
As a professional piano tuner, this is exactly why piano tuning is "stretched" -- such that the fundamental frequencies of the higher notes are "raised" to match the IH overtones of the lower strings. By the same token, the lowest notes of a piano need to be "flattened", such that their higher (but still IH) overtones will correspond with the "in-tune" fundamental frequencies of the notes in the middle of the piano.
The result is this: Pianos with shorter strings to begin with ... require more severely stretched tuning than do longer pianos.
Cheers,
Joe
Evil, yes, unison is extremely important in pianoforte. The tool can be flat, electric, glass, melodic, juicy .. and all the difference thanks to the tuning of unison. And also enjoyable for the game or not. I hope in the future to look into these moments more ..
jcfelice88keys,of course I know the notion of non-harmony. If the strings diverge in a disharmony the situation would be such-one overtone for example would stand still, some would lower, and some would overstate. But then there was a situation where the overtone was moving away in different directions.
Evil, yes, unison is extremely important in pianoforte.
You mean "detuning of the double/triple strings", not unison. If all three or two strings of a certain key on the piano had exactly the same pitch, it would sound like crap, because too many frequencies would cancel out.
scherbakov.al wrote:Evil, yes, unison is extremely important in pianoforte.
You mean "detuning of the double/triple strings", not unison. If all three or two strings of a certain key on the piano had exactly the same pitch, it would sound like crap, because too many frequencies would cancel out.
Yes, in principle, it is. Too clean unison sounds dry, glassy, boring.
But the example from the first post is not about that. Also, this is not about the disharmony of the string. If the tuner assumes some frequencies with some string harmony, but he hears a string with other properties, then it will look like strobe rings rotating at different speeds. With different brevity, but in one direction. For example, the first ring - stands still, and the next - rotating at an ever-increasing speed. The example from the first post is a little about another. The tuner is tuned in harmony parameters to the string that he hears. But it is clear that some frequencies are biased. And this is a manifestation of the interaction of the string with the deck. In Pianoteq there are instruments in which a sound such as if its strings are pulled over a perfectly rigid frame. Such a tool, for example, YC5. And due to the fact that one end of the string dangles and sways in all three planes, this shift of some frequencies occurs. I used to want to find clear research about this. And recently an article came out:
https://asa.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1121/1.5132940
But, unfortunately, so far I can’t read it (
Apparently there everything is described quantitatively..
I could imagine this research leading to a new control slider like "Plate/String Coupling"? With 0 rational centre and gradations left and right decreasing or increasing the strength of a coupling effect (based on how much vibrational interaction occurs between the two systems).. with maybe that effect taking the random seed, or it's own, for the routine (no 2 pianos come out of the factory the same, except with 1234 seed which most users will hear).
If a crack in the soundboard could be added to the condition slider's calc, this research might be informative to that kind of artifact
First a short comment: the coupling of the three strings of each choir via the soundboard has indeed the consequence that "pure" unisons almost never exist: even if the three strings have exactly the same tension and same other physical parameters (length, diameter, etc.), the resulting frequencies of the three fundamental modes (or any given overtone modes) are usually slightly different. It does not imply a beat because those modes have usually very different decays, and hence, being most of the time at a different loudness, the beating is not perceptible, apart a possible strong attenuation during the transition from fast to slow decay.
I could imagine this research leading to a new control slider like "Plate/String Coupling"? With 0 rational centre and gradations left and right decreasing or increasing the strength of a coupling effect (based on how much vibrational interaction occurs between the two systems).. with maybe that effect taking the random seed, or it's own, for the routine (no 2 pianos come out of the factory the same, except with 1234 seed which most users will hear).
This coupling is already modelled in Pianoteq, and it depends essentially on the soundboard impedance: the higher the soundboard impedance, the smaller the coupling (and infinite impedance means perfect rigid soundboard and no coupling), and vice versa. So the new control slider you are seeking is already there in the design panel of Pianoteq (Standard and Pro)
Thank you Philippe - great to find this already factored in!
the smaller the coupling (and infinite impedance means perfect rigid soundboard and no coupling), and vice versa
Makes it clear. In my ignorance I was excited that this may be a factor additional to the existing impedance control itself.
Always such a fine treat to find so much already inherent. That itself is something not so surprising but always so amazing. Cheers!
First a short comment: the coupling of the three strings of each choir via the soundboard has indeed the consequence that "pure" unisons almost never exist: even if the three strings have exactly the same tension and same other physical parameters (length, diameter, etc.), the resulting frequencies of the three fundamental modes (or any given overtone modes) are usually slightly different. It does not imply a beat because those modes have usually very different decays, and hence, being most of the time at a different loudness, the beating is not perceptible, apart a possible strong attenuation during the transition from fast to slow decay.
Qexl wrote:I could imagine this research leading to a new control slider like "Plate/String Coupling"? With 0 rational centre and gradations left and right decreasing or increasing the strength of a coupling effect (based on how much vibrational interaction occurs between the two systems).. with maybe that effect taking the random seed, or it's own, for the routine (no 2 pianos come out of the factory the same, except with 1234 seed which most users will hear).
This coupling is already modelled in Pianoteq, and it depends essentially on the soundboard impedance: the higher the soundboard impedance, the smaller the coupling (and infinite impedance means perfect rigid soundboard and no coupling), and vice versa. So the new control slider you are seeking is already there in the design panel of Pianoteq (Standard and Pro)
From my experiments, I think I have found that to a greater extent (than with any other parameter) I am able to match up slight velocity inconsistencies between notes using impedance parameter note for note adjustments. Am I right in thinking so?
From my experiments, I think I have found that to a greater extent (than with any other parameter) I am able to match up slight velocity inconsistencies between notes using impedance parameter note for note adjustments. Am I right in thinking so?
Hard to say, if something works for you, then why not. Though I would rather address velocity inconsistencies by playing first with volume and hammer hardness.
scherbakov.al wrote:Evil, yes, unison is extremely important in pianoforte.
You mean "detuning of the double/triple strings", not unison. If all three or two strings of a certain key on the piano had exactly the same pitch, it would sound like crap, because too many frequencies would cancel out.
First a short comment: the coupling of the three strings of each choir via the soundboard has indeed the consequence that "pure" unisons almost never exist: even if the three strings have exactly the same tension and same other physical parameters (length, diameter, etc.), the resulting frequencies of the three fundamental modes (or any given overtone modes) are usually slightly different. It does not imply a beat because those modes have usually very different decays, and hence, being most of the time at a different loudness, the beating is not perceptible, apart a possible strong attenuation during the transition from fast to slow decay.
So, if I’m correct, unisons are often other than existential. They are theoretical, particualarly in music theory. Astoundingly, whether or not they imply a beat that is inconsequential to me, it is so long as somewhere some poor little drummer boy, who eager to play his paradiddles, faithfully awaits and dreams, of a drum model and the hopes that might herald, but bring, under a string of gleaming Christmas lights, by this approaching holiday season hardly Spring, irregardless of some one identified as evil, ever trying vehemently, to protest just anything! (Smile.) It is especially appropriate at any weird overtones.