Topic: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

Hello,

I am quite a long time Pianoteq user, I have it since version 3 and currantly have the actual version 6 including all grand piano addons.
I like the playability with the realistic dynamic behaviour.

I use it mostly for playing and practicing with a Yamaha Avantgrand N1X. This is a phantastic combination, the N1X grand piano action with Pianoteq gives you a very realistic playing experience.

In general the sound meanwhile has become very realistic.
There is one thing, though, that still annoys me a bit and this more or less in all the piano addons.

This is the sound of notes in the range approximately from E2 to E3, some more some less. It does not sound right in my ears, it sounds a bit harsh. metallic and wirily. If you would hear a recording of various digital pianos including Pianoteq the sound in this area would make it easy to identify the Pianoteq recording.

Is this range in general difficult to simulate correctly? Is it possible to tweak it to sound a bit warmer?

I am using the standard version of Pianoteq. May be this can be tweaked better in the Pro version where you can adjust single notes, but I am not a sound tinker. Can anyone suggest a fxp file where the soiund of this range is improved?

I have various piano sample libraries like Garritan CFX, Galaxy Pianos with Steinway D, Ivory… They all lack playability compared to Pianoteq but all sound better in this range.

Stefan

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

This may very well be a problem of your headphones / sound system. I remember trying ATH-M50x headphones with Pianoteq and i too experienced some metallic sound - went away with other headphones.

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

gasparka wrote:

This may very well be a problem of your headphones / sound system. I remember trying ATH-M50x headphones with Pianoteq and i too experienced some metallic sound - went away with other headphones.

It’s definitely not the headphones or speakers, it is Pianoteq’s simulation.
It was more distinct in earlier Pianoteq versions.

You can hear it with the N1X speaker system as well as Syrincs M3-220 speakers or different headphones, for the Piano I use Yamaha HPH-150B and / or AKG K420, both being very nice, very good sound but very light.

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

stuenn wrote:

Hello,

I am quite a long time Pianoteq user, I have it since version 3 and currantly have the actual version 6 including all grand piano addons.
I like the playability with the realistic dynamic behaviour.

I use it mostly for playing and practicing with a Yamaha Avantgrand N1X. This is a phantastic combination, the N1X grand piano action with Pianoteq gives you a very realistic playing experience.

In general the sound meanwhile has become very realistic.
There is one thing, though, that still annoys me a bit and this more or less in all the piano addons.

This is the sound of notes in the range approximately from E2 to E3, some more some less. It does not sound right in my ears, it sounds a bit harsh. metallic and wirily. If you would hear a recording of various digital pianos including Pianoteq the sound in this area would make it easy to identify the Pianoteq recording.

Is this range in general difficult to simulate correctly? Is it possible to tweak it to sound a bit warmer?

I am using the standard version of Pianoteq. May be this can be tweaked better in the Pro version where you can adjust single notes, but I am not a sound tinker. Can anyone suggest a fxp file where the soiund of this range is improved?

I have various piano sample libraries like Garritan CFX, Galaxy Pianos with Steinway D, Ivory… They all lack playability compared to Pianoteq but all sound better in this range.

Stefan

I have the exact same experience (you are talking octaves according to MIDI standard, right?). I think Pianoteq sounds excellent in the low end and from the upper midrange and above. But to me it lacks in that area you describe. I think it's especially true with the Steinway D with the lower velocity levels where the sound resemble of a mix between a piano and a nylon stringed guitar. I am not a long time user of Pianoteq so it might depend on my inability to get the velocity curve and other settings right though.

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

gasparka wrote:

This may very well be a problem of your headphones / sound system. I remember trying ATH-M50x headphones with Pianoteq and i too experienced some metallic sound - went away with other headphones.

johanibraaten wrote:

the sound resemble of a mix between a piano and a nylon stringed guitar

My experience with playing classical guitar with nylon strings, is that they exactly don't sound metallic (since they are nylon).

I experienced a sharp metallic overtone on some keys (esp. g2-flat), but only when tuned in A=432 Hz and when listening on the studio speakers. With the headphone, this was absent.
Somehow, this high overtone has vanished. Maybe due to changed settings. Maybe, I'm used to it. Don't know.
So I guess, that there is some interference with the equipment used, as probably was the case with me.

Have a nice day & happy playin'

Yamaha CP33 -- Scarlett 2i2 -- Yamaha HS7 / Sennheiser HD650 -- PTQ 8 Pro [Linux] -- Some instruments

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

Probably, stuenn, you will want to hear demos of piano sounds offered on the PIANOTEQ Listen by instrument page  —and hear them on different devices including a neighbor’s or friend’s.  You may listen to whatever note ranges questionable!

stuenn wrote:

There is one thing, though, that still annoys me a bit and this more or less in all the piano addons.

This is the sound of notes in the range approximately from E2 to E3, some more some less. It does not sound right in my ears, it sounds a bit harsh. metallic and wirily. If you would hear a recording of various digital pianos including Pianoteq the sound in this area would make it easy to identify the Pianoteq recording.

Is this range in general difficult to simulate correctly? Is it possible to tweak it to sound a bit warmer?

I’ve linked a topic similar to yours on a page, https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=6721.

Perhaps you’ll come away with something helpful.

With PIANOTEQ PRO a person unquestionably gains valuable insights into one note spectrum and another having glaring differences (visible in the PIANOTEQ PRO NOTE EDIT pane).

Is it possible to tweak it to sound a bit warmer?

Sure!

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (13-11-2019 03:35)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

Viridis wrote:

My experience with playing classical guitar with nylon strings, is that they exactly don't sound metallic (since they are nylon).

I'm not bothered by the tone being metallic, but rather lack of overtones in the upper bass/lower mids. I've just upgraded to pro so it will be possible to experiment with overtones in different registers. I think it would be a good idea to meet with a good piano technician that have the knowledge how to voice the hammers and what impact that has on the overtones (not just harder or softer hammers) and try to transfer that kind of thinking to Pianoteq.

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

I've definitely noticed the "wiry" and ringing overtone in the octaves that you mentioned on the Pianoteq Steinway D. I've grown to really like the overall sound of the D, but frankly I didn't enjoy it much at first. I haven't noticed it on the Steingreiber, the Bechstein, or the Bluethner.

Where I wanted to ask your opinion is on the base notes in octaves 1 and 2 on the Steinway D. To me they sound very "tubby", which is characteristic of an upright piano. Does a real Stein D sound that way? I've never played one, so this is my unprofessional and uninformed opinion.

Last edited by sb56637 (22-11-2019 02:40)

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

A lot of sound libraries (I've used many and still hold a few) may on the surface sound more 'produced' if I can put it that way.. so 'better' is a tweak away - esp. with Pro. (to me Pianoteq is more recordable - like a real piano in studio put to tape so to speak) But defaults sound workable these days for almost anything but I pretty much am an audio tweaker - so I do make my own production decisions from Pianoteq through to a collection of VST effects in a DAW to bring any VST to a 'finished' or 'better' feel anyway. To me, these other libraries are not as usable as Pianoteq in a DAW.. they're already too produced in a certain way (therefore less editable), and as mentioned, less playability sadly makes them relics in my kit.

Without Pianoteq Pro, in Pianoteq Standard you can select from 8 overtones which affect all strings, and raise or lower each. It's also possible to balance these changes remarkably well with the Direct sound duration slider on the left and hammer hardness. Apart from all the other parameters, these are good beginnings for the items brought up I think.

You can definitely add or remove overtones from any area or note with Pro, drawn in ranges via mouse, or by entering numbers. So if you hear too much wire in some range, you can simply drag the mouse to draw 'less' overtones or sympathetic resonance of the 30 or so params. For example, in the Spectrum Profile in Note Edit mode in Piantoeq Pro, choose a filter (4 comb, 3 harmonic, major etc.) or other tools to remove or enhance some type of ringing or metal/wood.

With bass notes sounding tubby, maybe you could get some good results by moving the sliders in the action section (action button is on the front of interface in Standard and Pro) 'Damper position' and 'Damper duration' - by lessening or increasing both or either of these, you can profoundly affect the timbre of the bass.. so they may ring longer or damp quicker, and with the damper evoking more or fewer disruptive overtonal qualities. Or just cut a little bass from one of the 2 EQ tools (Pre or Post) - or lower reverb, in case you are in player position trying to emulate reality better (compared to making a 'recorded album piano' type sound).

Beyond that, you can get into the different EQ types available and zoom into some great detail - there's nothing a sound enthusiast can't do with all the controls I feel - and always love to encourage people to putter about with the settings until they make bells ring

Going further though, there's a lot of better sound to be produced from a fine edit of your velocity curve - or go through the calibration process a few times more to help make some well informed finer edits. The curve I feel is probably one of the main ways in which you can elicit the best results from Pianoteq.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

johanibraaten wrote:

I think it's especially true with the Steinway D with the lower velocity levels where the sound resemble of a mix between a piano and a nylon stringed guitar.

Just in case and without offense, do you play often on real pianos?
Because I had the same feel as what you describe when I started the piano 6 years ago. For me it was a kind of mix between piano and Celesta sound. I started on Pianoteq and had never touched a piano before.
Then, when I played for the first time on my teacher's grand and heard the sound I came to the conclusion that this particular soft sound on the lower velocities is the normal sound of a good piano.

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

stamkorg wrote:

Just in case and without offense, do you play often on real pianos?

Yes, I'm working as a piano teacher since around 20 years and are dealing with some top grands and uprights on daily basis. However, I think my perception of the Pianoteq sound has to do more with my lack of pianoteq-experience rather than pianoteq lacking in sound quality. I'm feeling more and more that the key to a great sound in Pianoteq is a proper velocity curve just as Qexl is pointing out.

Last edited by johanibraaten (22-11-2019 11:46)

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

Check out the application called VelPro ver 1.1 by Springbeats (  www.springbeats.com  ) for a simple velocity curve editor that you can but in your MIDI stack between your keyboard and Pianoteq (and effectively between your keyboard and any VSTs that you play music with).  That way you can 'tune' your keyboard's velocity responses to your preference, and save the velocity curve editor in Pianoteq for more artistic uses, as many FXP files come with alterations in the velocity curve used by the designers for creative purposes.  The new version of VelPro allows more than one curve that you can switch between, should you want to have your own virtual instruments, say, one soft and slow, and another quite hard and bright.

- David

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

johanibraaten wrote:

Yes, I'm working as a piano teacher since around 20 years

Hahaha, ok sorry

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

I've been playing piano for decades, but I admit that I always had junk pianos. Like, $20 basement-find junk pianos. But that's how you learn alternate slash cords, when the base note key is broken. :-) So Pianoteq is by far the nicest and most expensive sounding instrument I've ever played on, and I'm surely not complaining. :-) Which is why I was wondering if some of these little quirks and nuances are also present on the real thing, especially the Steinway D, which has the most pronounced quirks.

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

I have to say dklein, I like your wording ‘creative purposes,’ more than one might, downright mistakes.  The presence of nonlinear velocities showing up anyhow in a posted preset (FXP) seems opened still to debate.  And, the fact whether or not one includes them rightly or wrongly inside his FXP posts, is a topic likely unto itself for some sorts of very heated but equally encouraging discussions now.

Let’s see, on one hand a body includes them, presumably, to calibrate inside your dwelling your keyboard —irregardless of its manufacture— for you, and as artistic expression solely but to dismiss your own calibrations painstakingly made by you after you got your copy of PIANOTEQ and did only as the software suggests you do  —from a copyrighted manual.  All this occurs, presumably, for you to get out of your playing the creative purpose the poster initially intended and meant for you to get, all while seated at an entirely different controller.

On another, you simply just calibrate your board to interface with each piano model, each you get  —including his!

From previous post entries you and I know you’ve had your pet peeve quite awhile now.  Personally, I’m just glad you’ve discovered VelPro from Springbeats.  Now you have a happy medium too!

It allows individual note velocity adjustments, both stuenn and johanibraaten along with sb56637 can appreciate.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

stamkorg wrote:
johanibraaten wrote:

Yes, I'm working as a piano teacher since around 20 years

Hahaha, ok sorry

No worries:) It´s indeed a valid question.

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

dklein wrote:

Check out the application called VelPro ver 1.1 by Springbeats (  www.springbeats.com  ) for a simple velocity curve editor that you can but in your MIDI stack between your keyboard and Pianoteq (and effectively between your keyboard and any VSTs that you play music with).  That way you can 'tune' your keyboard's velocity responses to your preference, and save the velocity curve editor in Pianoteq for more artistic uses, as many FXP files come with alterations in the velocity curve used by the designers for creative purposes.  The new version of VelPro allows more than one curve that you can switch between, should you want to have your own virtual instruments, say, one soft and slow, and another quite hard and bright.

Thanks for the tip. It sounds very interesting. I would like to try to alter the "velocity balance" a little bit and make the touch a little lighter in the lower registers and a little heavier in the upper registers. Is that possible to do globaly or do I have to edit note-per-note?

Last edited by johanibraaten (25-11-2019 09:13)

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

Hmmm.....  I know that you can do it note-by-note, and you can do it for the black keys and/or the white keys, but I don't know how easy it is to link groups of keys.  Write to Springbeats - they are quite responsive (and sometimes add requested features, as they did with having multiple curve-memories).

- David

Re: Love Pianoteq with my N1X but still some notes don't sound right

I used the Black Friday offer to upgrade to Pianoteq Pro. I will see what it can do to the sound.:-)