Topic by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,491

Topic: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Many audio files and photographs, and not just for recording piano--the first link on the home page is for recording guitar. Scroll down to find the link for piano setups,  with around 70 audio files illustrating the result of each. They used the small diaphragm Rode NT55's for these recordings, sometimes using the omni capsule and sometimes using the cardioid capsule. There is text describing the setup for each set of recordings:

http://www.cambridge-mt.com/rs-lmp.htm

The recently praised XY setup is the last one on the page for the grand piano. They positioned the mics at three locations to illustrate the difference in the sound in the three variants of the only close mic'ed setup. Versions B and C do it best for me. Makes me want a pair of those mics, along with more mic presets in Pianoteq.

[EDIT: I originally wrote that all of the mics used the omni capsule on these mics, but now I see that they sometimes used the omni capsule and sometimes switched to the cardioid capsule.]

Last edited by Jake Johnson (11-11-2019 18:30)

Reply by bm

  • Avatar
  • bm
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: France (Burgundy)
  • Registered: 15-09-2017
  • Posts: 302

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Jake Johnson wrote:

Many audio files and photographs, and not just for recording piano--the first link on the home page is for recording guitar. Scroll down to find the link for piano setups,  with around 70 audio files illustrating the result of each. They used the small diaphragm Rode NT55 omni's for these recordings:

http://www.cambridge-mt.com/rs-lmp.htm

The recently praised XY setup is the last one on the page for the grand piano. They positioned the mics at three locations to illustrate the difference in the sound in the three variants of the only close mic'ed setup. Versions B and C do it best for me. Makes me want a pair of those mics, along with more mic presets in Pianoteq.

Very interesting link ...
(Too bad I did not have this link this summer during my micro position tests ...)

NB: A couple of microphones that works very well with the piano, cheaper than NT55, although cardioide only
  is the SE8 model. The best results I got this summer were with 2 SE 8, above the hammers + 1 Rode NT 1000 at the tail of the instrument. (amateur tests), I think the result would have been better with 3 SE8 pickups, or maybe even 5 SE8 pickups instead of the Rode NT 1000 pickups used ... (of course, it would have been necessary especially a pianist much less bad, even for these simple tests)
In the .zip files, link below, I recorded the same notes simultaneously with 11 microphones including SE8 at different positions on separate tracks, with our bosendorfer 200.
Links:
* Mics position:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP...F3M1lPVGtB
* Tracks :  2 x .zip 24bits 96khz flac audio files:  ( 1Gb + 1 Gb     - )   links:
http://dl.free.fr/i1ST6UU3s
http://dl.free.fr/i9r277QWr

Bruno

Reply by Luc Henrion

  • Avatar
  • Luc Henrion
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 916

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Sorry but I have just one word of caution here: "phase". Do you have a "mono" switch on your monitoring system ? Use it.
Timbre is one thing, stereo image and mono compatibility is another story. BTW, it's amusing that mono listening systems are again "up to date" (Sonos systems & all), almost half a century after stereo was available only for a selected (= rich) audience !
I've been recording pianos (mine and many, many others) for more than 40 years now and I still keep using an ORTF pair 99% of the time, my current prefered setup is a pair of C214 (or 414 when available) and an Audient preamp, and that's it.
But the placement is very, very important, and the room also. And the most important is... the man on the chair before the keyboard !
"Play" with as many microphones you have but my advice is: "kiss" (keep it simple...), we only have 2 ears, don't we ? ;-)
Peace. :-)

Luc Henrion's Website

Reply by bm

  • Avatar
  • bm
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: France (Burgundy)
  • Registered: 15-09-2017
  • Posts: 302

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

bm wrote:
Jake Johnson wrote:

Many audio files and photographs, and not just for recording piano--the first link on the home page is for recording guitar. Scroll down to find the link for piano setups,  with around 70 audio files illustrating the result of each. They used the small diaphragm Rode NT55 omni's for these recordings:

http://www.cambridge-mt.com/rs-lmp.htm

The recently praised XY setup is the last one on the page for the grand piano. They positioned the mics at three locations to illustrate the difference in the sound in the three variants of the only close mic'ed setup. Versions B and C do it best for me. Makes me want a pair of those mics, along with more mic presets in Pianoteq.

Very interesting link ...
(Too bad I did not have this link this summer during my micro position tests ...)

NB: A couple of microphones that works very well with the piano, cheaper than NT55, although cardioide only
  is the SE8 model. The best results I got this summer were with 2 SE 8, above the hammers + 1 Rode NT 1000 at the tail of the instrument. (amateur tests), I think the result would have been better with 3 SE8 pickups, or maybe even 5 SE8 pickups instead of the Rode NT 1000 pickups used ... (of course, it would have been necessary especially a pianist much less bad, even for these simple tests)
In the .zip files, link below, I recorded the same notes simultaneously with 11 microphones including SE8 at different positions on separate tracks, with our bosendorfer 200.
Links:
* Mics position:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP...F3M1lPVGtB
* Tracks :  2 x .zip 24bits 96khz flac audio files:  ( 1Gb + 1 Gb     - )   links:
http://dl.free.fr/i1ST6UU3s
http://dl.free.fr/i9r277QWr

Bruno

Each track has been recorded separately (mono) with Reaper DAW, the monitoring being recorded being against only in stereo on my Tascam 16-channel USB card.
However, this was only a simple acoustic experiment (more acoustic than pianistic). The feedback of experience with the limits of this unprofessional material has been for me
(1) that a greater number of entry level microphones does not compensate for the lack of quality of the pickups (obviously not even the pianist), this, regardless of the location of the mics -
- other positions than on this picture have been tested including the use of SE8 mics in XY position as well as a microphone for the bass under the piano
(2) the distance of the mics to more than 2 m from a grand piano in a relatively narrow room gives disappointing results difficult to compensate for an amateur in post-processing,
(3) the positioning of a third microphone at the "tail" of the piano, just above the strings - very beneficial for the bass, gives more latitude to position the first 2 microphones at the front of the piano, while bringing a very interesting spatialization effect. (Even with only 2 ears and particularly enjoying the listening position "player", i feel like (subjectively) to get a more realistic sound by capturing a part at the back of the piano.
One of the objectives of this test was also to verify if the displacement of the pianoteq virtual microphones was really representative of the physical displacement of the microphones around an acoustic piano, which seems nearly the case, with all the limits of this amateur test ...

Bruno

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,491

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Luc Henrion wrote:

Sorry but I have just one word of caution here: "phase". Do you have a "mono" switch on your monitoring system ? Use it.
Timbre is one thing, stereo image and mono compatibility is another story. BTW, it's amusing that mono listening systems are again "up to date" (Sonos systems & all), almost half a century after stereo was available only for a selected (= rich) audience !
I've been recording pianos (mine and many, many others) for more than 40 years now and I still keep using an ORTF pair 99% of the time, my current prefered setup is a pair of C214 (or 414 when available) and an Audient preamp, and that's it.
But the placement is very, very important, and the room also. And the most important is... the man on the chair before the keyboard !
"Play" with as many microphones you have but my advice is: "kiss" (keep it simple...), we only have 2 ears, don't we ? ;-)
Peace. :-)

I've used a pair of C214's on a grand with good results, but haven't tried the C414's, and I'm thinking of investing in a pair, since they are considered a standard. (Pianoteq includes an emulation.) Do you hear a tremendous difference? Could you by any chance post recordings using both...?

Reply by Luc Henrion

  • Avatar
  • Luc Henrion
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 916

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Sorry, I never had the chance to make an A/B comparison but to my ears, the C214 are really on a par with the 414, it's really the cardio versus multiple directivity that makes the biggest difference. But since this is useless for an ORTF pair I stick to the C214 I recently bought...
I try not to move them anymore from the position I found best sounding on my old (1951) Gunther grand. Me happy ! :-)
For those concerned, in a small room, an interesting recording position for a "classical" sound is near the end of the piano:  not too close of the hammers, not too much "room" (since it's no interesting). Just add reverb.
My 2 cents :-)

Luc Henrion's Website

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,491

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

bm wrote:
bm wrote:
Jake Johnson wrote:

Many audio files and photographs, and not just for recording piano--the first link on the home page is for recording guitar. Scroll down to find the link for piano setups,  with around 70 audio files illustrating the result of each. They used the small diaphragm Rode NT55 omni's for these recordings:

http://www.cambridge-mt.com/rs-lmp.htm

The recently praised XY setup is the last one on the page for the grand piano. They positioned the mics at three locations to illustrate the difference in the sound in the three variants of the only close mic'ed setup. Versions B and C do it best for me. Makes me want a pair of those mics, along with more mic presets in Pianoteq.

Very interesting link ...
(Too bad I did not have this link this summer during my micro position tests ...)

NB: A couple of microphones that works very well with the piano, cheaper than NT55, although cardioide only
  is the SE8 model. The best results I got this summer were with 2 SE 8, above the hammers + 1 Rode NT 1000 at the tail of the instrument. (amateur tests), I think the result would have been better with 3 SE8 pickups, or maybe even 5 SE8 pickups instead of the Rode NT 1000 pickups used ... (of course, it would have been necessary especially a pianist much less bad, even for these simple tests)
In the .zip files, link below, I recorded the same notes simultaneously with 11 microphones including SE8 at different positions on separate tracks, with our bosendorfer 200.
Links:
* Mics position:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP...F3M1lPVGtB
* Tracks :  2 x .zip 24bits 96khz flac audio files:  ( 1Gb + 1 Gb     - )   links:
http://dl.free.fr/i1ST6UU3s
http://dl.free.fr/i9r277QWr

Bruno

Each track has been recorded separately (mono) with Reaper DAW, the monitoring being recorded being against only in stereo on my Tascam 16-channel USB card.
However, this was only a simple acoustic experiment (more acoustic than pianistic). The feedback of experience with the limits of this unprofessional material has been for me
(1) that a greater number of entry level microphones does not compensate for the lack of quality of the pickups (obviously not even the pianist), this, regardless of the location of the mics -
- other positions than on this picture have been tested including the use of SE8 mics in XY position as well as a microphone for the bass under the piano
(2) the distance of the mics to more than 2 m from a grand piano in a relatively narrow room gives disappointing results difficult to compensate for an amateur in post-processing,
(3) the positioning of a third microphone at the "tail" of the piano, just above the strings - very beneficial for the bass, gives more latitude to position the first 2 microphones at the front of the piano, while bringing a very interesting spatialization effect. (Even with only 2 ears and particularly enjoying the listening position "player", i feel like (subjectively) to get a more realistic sound by capturing a part at the back of the piano.
One of the objectives of this test was also to verify if the displacement of the pianoteq virtual microphones was really representative of the physical displacement of the microphones around an acoustic piano, which seems nearly the case, with all the limits of this amateur test ...

Bruno

Bruno,

When I click on the links for your audio files, I'm taken to a "Fichier inexistant" page. Could you upload them again?

Last edited by Jake Johnson (12-11-2019 03:45)

Reply by Professor Leandro Duarte

  • Avatar
  • Professor Leandro Duarte
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Brasil
  • Registered: 03-03-2019
  • Posts: 211

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Very interesting topic, congratulations!

Has anyone of you ever auditioned for binaural piano recording? What is the result?

Respeito, Esforço e Sabedoria

Reply by Amen Ptah Ra

  • Avatar
  • Amen Ptah Ra
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Los Angeles, California
  • Registered: 12-05-2017
  • Posts: 1,817

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

I too have found broken links.  Something is fishy.

Thank you, Jake for yours.

Another site is one where you compare a piano’s recorded sound out of about three hundred (300) different possible microphones, all of various types, sizes and price ranges.

It is accessible from this link, https://www.audiotestkitchen.com/.

Now to fix any stereo mic setup —with your microphones— or to use that optimally, you may require MAutoStereoFix.  With a reduced price 50% off the regular, it is on a sale now at MeldaProduction.

Essentially, it for physical instruments does what PIANOTEQ COMPENSATION LEVEL and DELAY do for modeled virtual ones.  Sometimes on a modeled piano, I prefer it to any compensation otherwise intended for the instruments inside the Pianoteq software, as it can listen to the entirety of your recorded track before corrections and allow you to apply those marginally and more so or as needed afterwards.  You get it at an existent link, at this link, https://www.meldaproduction.com/MAutoStereoFix.

You know a truly missing link (that is) about acoustic piano recording setups and the professionalism and details they can necessitate becomes apparent by a total lack of support for microphone preamps, within the piano software, a VST which is to suggest you somehow use microphones but chiefly without mic preamps.  That seems very unrealistic  —almost otherworldly.

I know I may sound like a harpy, but I just have to dump about missing preamps!

You know a brother has to do, what a brother has to do.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (18-11-2019 19:42)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Reply by DonSmith

  • Avatar
  • DonSmith
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 24-09-2008
  • Posts: 414

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Is there a shout for having six or more microphones?

Reply by Luc Henrion

  • Avatar
  • Luc Henrion
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 916

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

88 maybe ? Come on...

Luc Henrion's Website

Reply by bm

  • Avatar
  • bm
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: France (Burgundy)
  • Registered: 15-09-2017
  • Posts: 302

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Jake Johnson wrote:
bm wrote:
bm wrote:

Very interesting link ...
(Too bad I did not have this link this summer during my micro position tests ...)

NB: A couple of microphones that works very well with the piano, cheaper than NT55, although cardioide only
  is the SE8 model. The best results I got this summer were with 2 SE 8, above the hammers + 1 Rode NT 1000 at the tail of the instrument. (amateur tests), I think the result would have been better with 3 SE8 pickups, or maybe even 5 SE8 pickups instead of the Rode NT 1000 pickups used ... (of course, it would have been necessary especially a pianist much less bad, even for these simple tests)
In the .zip files, link below, I recorded the same notes simultaneously with 11 microphones including SE8 at different positions on separate tracks, with our bosendorfer 200.
Links:
* Mics position:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP...F3M1lPVGtB
* Tracks :  .../...

When I click on the links for your audio files, I'm taken to a "Fichier inexistant" page. Could you upload them again?

These links worked well a few days ago but actually are now broken.
I have uploaded these files again, hoping that my ISP will not cut them too quickly ...
* http://dl.free.fr/jG2EjxSHq   (part1: "REAL-BOSEN-200-11-MICS-TRACKS-PART1.zip")
* http://dl.free.fr/kG0YpjYpw  (part2: "REAL-BOSEN-200-11-MICS-TRACKS-PART2.zip")

I added a 3rd link with only a mix of 3 mics giving the best results (2 x vertical SE-8 in the front + 1 Rode NT1000 wide membrane in the "tail" of the piano)
* http://dl.free.fr/rVOY1eGKM (Mix 3 mics: "BOSTST12_3_tracks.flac" )

These files are a bit long: 1h / 1 Gb each (7 mn upload for me...) because they also contain the recording of bosendorfer 200 , notes per note with several velocities, long & stacato  & chords - material to build a future better fxp with a more precise spectrum profile.
NB1: there is no post-processing on these files (no compression, equalization or other ...)
NB2: The amateur pianist I am is terrible (and made no effort during this test to improve a little ...) but the goal was only acoustic here.

Bruno

Reply by Amen Ptah Ra

  • Avatar
  • Amen Ptah Ra
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Los Angeles, California
  • Registered: 12-05-2017
  • Posts: 1,817

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Say Bruno, I just tried your BOSTST12_3_tracks.flac through MAutoStereoFix.  With it the flac sounds as pristine (spatial wise) as something coming from Pianoteq.  Man, tell me you got the plugin on sale before it went back to its regular price!

If you need a demo, you can download it anytime, since it's always available.  And, if you just get it, you can spot the big difference, as it's very obvious on your flac.

Let me know, whether or not you would like any advice on its usage.  That is for best results similar to my own from your file.  Any experimentation is always possible.  But, right now I suggest you try and vary from the plugin's default, toward a SPECTRUM SMOOTHING 3% and engage PHASE SMOOTHING 8.4%.  Although ultimately you season your own to taste.  I’m sure you have your idea of a spatial target.

Incidentally, I previously sent an email to Jake (original poster {OP}) about the plugin.  Examples of it already in usage (with other plugins) are inside my posts to my ongoing forum topic: Engineering Pianoteq Steinway B Close Mic Preset.  Which features a couple of downloadable files also.  That is downloadable from SoundCloud and available for anybody wanting to load these into his DAW and check their stereo coherence for himself.

You may confirm whether or not any phase issues are present in a stereo file and whether or not some constitute a real problem for you, via your DAW coherence monitor.

Of course, when a problem arises, either Jake or I (whose posts appear also under the topic heading Engineering Pianoteq Steinway B Close Mic Preset) have a suggestion or more as a possible solution.

Coincidentally, topics like this one are controversial yet opened to somehow continued forum discussions.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (14-01-2020 21:47)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Reply by bm

  • Avatar
  • bm
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: France (Burgundy)
  • Registered: 15-09-2017
  • Posts: 302

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Hello, Amen,
Thank you for your test with the MautoStereoFix plugin.
I just tried it (last demo version downloaded with my .flac piano file at 96k), unfortunately, except for very short extracts, this plugin crash with the latest version of Audacity (except for short extracts) as soon as i apply the changes. On short extracts tested, with your settings, the stereo image is actually a little cleaner.

Bruno

Reply by Amen Ptah Ra

  • Avatar
  • Amen Ptah Ra
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Los Angeles, California
  • Registered: 12-05-2017
  • Posts: 1,817

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Let me know as soon as you get things debugged.  I disengaged the plugin's loudness control (button).  Results are interesting.  They are from phase, spectrum and delay corrections only in the plugin. 

Will keep this ongoing!

On my side at an iMac, I’d encountered bugs always with the freebie Audacity.  And, I’ve since purchased a copy of Izotope RX7 and instead use it  —with positively neither hitch nor glitch.  Coincidentally, it also applies corrections to stereo spectrums.  But, it has different algorithms, which yield different results.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (14-01-2020 21:52)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Reply by David Pinnegar

  • Avatar
  • David Pinnegar
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 27-01-2019
  • Posts: 53

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

As a result of the growing interest in unequal temperaments as pianists are finding available on Pianoteq I'm increasingly tuning real pianos. At the Nice International Piano Competition last month I did recordings of the semi finals where a Yamaha C7 was in use and at the Gala concert and orchestral category final with a lovely Fazioli.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnTDkj5dYYc was recorded using a pair of AKG D202 dynamic mics plugged into a Tascam DR70 recorder which has good low noise inputs. The mics were around 3 metres from the Yamaha and 2 metres from the Fazioli at around 130 degrees to the back of the piano - so two thirds or so along the length as an ORTF pair facing the performer.

For on-the-hoof recording low battery power consumption is helpful and thus a return to dynamic rather than powered mics. The D202 family of AKG mics can send condenser mics running to the sidelines.

Meanwhile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wdMbiOlw9s gave me no option but for the piano to be on the left.

Best wishes

David P

Reply by Luc Henrion

  • Avatar
  • Luc Henrion
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 916

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

But you have to find a pair of D202 ! Not very common those days...
I happen to use also a DR70 that I appreciate a lot and I solved the battery usage problem by using an USB external battery - with 10.000 mAH you can record for many hours, even with 4 condenser mics.

Luc Henrion's Website

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,491

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Why do you like the D202's? Do you prefer dynamic mics in general for recording a piano?

Reply by David Pinnegar

  • Avatar
  • David Pinnegar
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 27-01-2019
  • Posts: 53

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Jake Johnson wrote:

Why do you like the D202's? Do you prefer dynamic mics in general for recording a piano?

I've done some test recordings and capacitor mics can be a bit in-your-face. The D202 family, D200 and D224 are really special in being unlike other dynamics which are limited - these have responses going right up into the top octave and are really quite flat within 3dB. However, it's really difficult to find any of these old mics really up to specification and so whilst I did the Jazz recording with a D202 and a D200 I'd measured as flat, the Nice recordings were done with one D202 up to specification and another I subsequently discovered to be faulty with a 6dB dip in the 1-3kHz region. This made the orchestra sound a bit claustrophobic but I had with me a home brew capacitor mid-side mic which I mixed in at around 6dB down, giving what I think is quite a good tonal balance. But on previous days with a Yamaha C7 with out of tune duplex scale, the dip in that frequency response of the one mic killed the horrible fuzz and made the instrument sound like a good instrument! The recording of David Martinescu at the end playing Bach is on that instrument.

I've now managed to get a pair of up to spec D202, one up to spec D224 and one D200.

The even directional frequency response of the D202 and D200 with which https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wdMbiOlw9s enabled me to rotate the stereo field for the singer in the central part of that recording to centre from far left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2Oy-piyl4w was a test recently before I discovered my faulty D202 between D200, D202 and D224. It was this recording that led me to test the D202 there. The D200 and D224 are similar enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOIk7Cx_m0 was interesting. The D202 which might have been the faulty one was excellent on cello whilst lacking detail on flute, although I thought it sounded natural, and the capacitor mic made the cello sound like an angry wasp through my laptop speakers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAUywSPSyWU was another test.

In addition, with the capacitor mics I've had odd occurrences of noise and bumps but with the dynamic mics with the DR70 one has low noise no fuss good recordings. The Jazz recording tonally in my opinion with the D200 and good D202 might have difficulty to be bettered.

Best wishes

David P

Reply by Luc Henrion

  • Avatar
  • Luc Henrion
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 916

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

D202's are very special mics: they have a "woofer" and a "tweeter" if I may risk this comparison ! And this 2-way design gives them a very large frequency response for a dynamic mic.

Luc Henrion's Website

Reply by David Pinnegar

  • Avatar
  • David Pinnegar
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 27-01-2019
  • Posts: 53

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Luc Henrion wrote:

D202's are very special mics: they have a "woofer" and a "tweeter" if I may risk this comparison ! And this 2-way design gives them a very large frequency response for a dynamic mic.

Yes. The trouble is that with maltreatment often either the treble or the bass one fails. If one's lucky one can then cannibalise one to repair another and then there might also be troubles with crossover components. I've had to buy 6 D202s to get a perfect working pair, and 4 D224s to get a working pair. So unless a mic is measured and has its frequency response graph as part of the sale one has to take a gamble of 4 5 or 6 to 2 to achieve the pair. If there's a pair with known frequency response up to spec then they're gold-dust and quite up to the value of the most respected capacitor mics.

It's a D202 sister, the D222 seen regularly in front of the British Prime Minister at the Despatch Box at Prime Minister's Question Time in Parliament.

Best wishes

David P

Last edited by David Pinnegar (30-11-2019 17:04)

Reply by budo

  • Avatar
  • budo
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 30-11-2016
  • Posts: 1,261

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

curious what the cognoscenti think about the Earthworks piano mic

https://earthworksaudio.com/microphones...-series-2/

some recordings i've heard sound really great, e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epAojAGmag4

@youtube
@facebook

Reply by David Pinnegar

  • Avatar
  • David Pinnegar
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 27-01-2019
  • Posts: 53

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

budo wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epAojAGmag4

In my opinion sounds like an electronic piano.

Here's my 1885 Bechstein recorded more conventionally
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xhRPI1LlO0

and an 1859 Broadwood concert grand, solo, overrecorded with the Bechstein for the orchestra part
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-W8oRAd6Bw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkuPMACOOLk and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dDo1GBMspE were from the same recording sessions demonstrating Kellner on the 1885 Bechstein

I don't recall exactly what I used here then - possibly either M-Audio Nova capacitor mics or possibly the inbuilt TASXAM DR40 mics and these recordings are nice representations of the original instrument. They were achieved with the mics at a height of around 5ft and in a position south west.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qy9J-fQIHI was with inbuilt TASCAM DR40 mics at 90 degrees to the instrument, due south and on another occasion, possibly with better tuning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKxpJdvgoCQ although this might have been closer miced.

Best wishes

David P

Reply by Amen Ptah Ra

  • Avatar
  • Amen Ptah Ra
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Los Angeles, California
  • Registered: 12-05-2017
  • Posts: 1,817

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

To some, jazz itself is unconventional!  It appears inventive in that the way it seems still to defy conventions long held. 

Some of the most famous of jazz sessions were recorded, unconventionally, inside someone’s home.  A Rudy Van Gelder maybe had engineered many such recordings in only his mother’s house.

My question is: “Was it necessarily the mother of all home studios today?”  You know, money is always a factor!

Incidentally, David, I personally like ORTF arrays when you as a listener get the impression of your head positioned right at the microphone placement  —if only Pianoteq would include them along with the modern Earthworks PM-40 Piano Mic system, revolutionary.

Remarkably, sounds captured from the Concours International de Piano de Nice 2019 might exemplify a lot of noteworthy interplay between the possible interaction of a resilient piano with the strings section, in the recording.  You have some real technical expertise, if you’re responsible for it!

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (30-11-2019 23:28)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Reply by David Pinnegar

  • Avatar
  • David Pinnegar
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 27-01-2019
  • Posts: 53

Re: Valuable, large site for learning more about mic positions

Yes - when listening through headphones the recording at Nice is particularly interesting - there is for me a sensation of the piano being in front of the orchestra and the sense of imaging is for me possibly almost a textbook example. The piano had the lid removed. One of the major problems that users of Pianoteq face is how to present the sound so that from a distance the speakers really do create the illusion of the presence of a piano. There are two requirements, one for players to be fooled into believing they're playing at a real piano, and the other for more public performance presenting the virtual instrument as the instrument itself. There are no easy answers and in my view the rather expensive Earthworks mics don't do a lot.

Another potentially interesting example of a piano recording is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBOdhthgsxs
which in my view is also accurate in its representation although I think one can tell that it results, unavoidably in the circumstances of the performance, from a mic pointed at the soundboard. The mics used for both piano and singer were Takstar PCM6100 and reproduced through the white horn speakers visible in the video. There's a degree of feedback giving a resonance which gives an air of a 1920s acoustic recording. The recording was made with the built in DR40 mics and as heard by the audience. The instrument survived its move outside and the weather and was tuned to an experimental Chopin unequal temperament devised by Dr Jonathan Bellman.

A number of people commented that it sounded like a vintage recording and some put this down to the unequal temperament. This is where users of Pianoteq who use their virtual instrument for such events with one of the unequal temperaments can have the advantage over conventionally tuned real instruments.

Best wishes

David P