Has anyone noticed a lack of clarity, tone, and dynamic range between a PianoTeq track playing in Logic and the export to .aif? That should be a non-compressed 24-bit version, and so I would expect it to sound essentially identical.
Using Stage, which as I understand internally samples at 48KHz.
Have you any audio examples you would like to post? Maybe to provide examples you could use an audio capture like Audio Hijack (https://rogueamoeba.com/audiohijack/).
The audio examples used in my recent post, Engineering Pianoteq Steinway B Close Mic Preset, are indeed from a Logic session. Although, I recall no noticeable difference in any of the files’ playback quality, when I listened to them individually in Logic.
You realize of course, no AIFF export is even possible from within Pianoteq standalone —Stage or otherwise.
And, internal sample rate is always a variable, user selected! I select from the options 44100 Hz, 48000 Hz, and 96000 Hz among others offered inside Pianoteq PRO.
Heya pkward88,
definitely doesn't happen that way here with Pianoteq (in other DAWs - I don't recently use Logic) unless there's a mismatch in settings (host project, interface, Pianoteq, any other loaded system audio getting in the way). I suspect you'll find the odd thing out in short thrift, or just overlooked a check-box in Logic somewhere?
Forgive if the options are not relevant to your situation (or you're aware of them and tried them already.)
Some more info would really be needed to trouble-shoot but sounds like maybe you're correctly set at 48kHz "sample rate" - but are you working at 32 bit inside Logic? (I like to work with 32 bit float, 24 if complexity pushes the system too far, then when bouncing/exporting etc.. I might go to 24 - then I can still re-work something if needed without damaging or creating artifacts in the down sized audio). Output to whatever final rate you want - but it should still sound quite close to the original even at 16bit CD rates. But with extreme downsizing, dithering might become more important to test and A/B.
Then when exporting (down) to 24 bit rate and 48kHz sample rate which would likely invoke some choice about dithering, no dithering and/or normalization which might need a few changes for best results. I believe Logic's export window should allow you to choose the type of dither and if you want normalized output in real time? Trial and error and your eventual taste will decide - and some others who use Logic a lot might have their own wealth of experience with its settings.
Other ideas - if you've done lots of editing of an Pianoteq (or any other audio) track, and in that process, you have changed down the rates, some plugin or the DAW might have auto-applied some dithering (check DAW settings for things like "automatically dither on mixdown" or similar). If every time you bounce a new version of a track (say with newly added reverb) it may still sound fine in Logic.. but when you go to bounce/export a final mixdown, it might be adding dithering yet again to that already dithered audio for the maybe 3rd time? You will maybe hear flatter response, maybe some noise like old analog gear or bad leads, glitchy or gritty, less headroom perhaps, some collapsing of frequencies into each other, rather than the nice clean bands you heard while in the DAW. A lot can go wrong. Even if no dither is applied, what should be a nice clean digital sounds, can sound like crushing glass in the background of a downsized file.
Maybe you're listening back to the aif on a different app with its own driver/mixer volume or some other thing lacking compared to Logic?
Or, you use an audio interface with a nice tool to boost/attenuate headroom (RME?) with Logic and Pianoteq but when you're playing back regular audio, it's not in the chain somehow? A button in Logic to monitor, rather than playback, if you have some unique routing.
Related to above, does your audio interface run through some hardware like a nice valve EQ? but that's cut out of the loop when playing back the aif on a system media player?
Or, you put the aif on a thumbdrive and plug it into a home theatre? and sounds un-mixed, or not properly 'mastered' (look to dithering and normalizing etc.. or maybe some mastering tools might be what you actually need - it's a nice learning curve but worth it for outputting better files.)
Is it possible to bounce/export from Logic and be bypassing effects? (In some hosts, there's stuff like "bypass effects when updating mastering file").. or in some instances, an bounce/export/mixdown etc.. can be with or without FX? (if you are running Pianoteq through an FX send/return for reverb or some other important aspect of the production).
Without more details, I'm more or less out of obvious ideas right now but sincerely hope something here and the above post helps you get to the issue.
Have you any audio examples you would like to post? Maybe to provide examples you could use an audio capture like Audio Hijack (https://rogueamoeba.com/audiohijack/).
The audio examples used in my recent post, Engineering Pianoteq Steinway B Close Mic Preset, are indeed from a Logic session. Although, I recall no noticeable difference in any of the files’ playback quality, when I listened to them individually in Logic.
You realize of course, no AIFF export is even possible from within Pianoteq standalone —Stage or otherwise.
And, internal sample rate is always a variable, user selected! I select from the options 44100 Hz, 48000 Hz, and 96000 Hz among others offered inside Pianoteq PRO.
Hi, all, thank you for your responses! I've done some searching around, and also have read your posts. I'll use that information as a guide, and will analyze this step-by-step.
Today I may have time to capture the audio as I hear it in Logic and also export as uncompressed WAV with and without effects. I'll upload these to the forum if I do have time to capture them.
General notes:
1. Pianoteq Stage being used.
2. Sounds terrific, detailed, and natural in Logic. In particular, I'm mixing with the Waves Abbey Road Studio 3 where it sounds spectacular on its own and especially in the mix with the singer.
3. On export (sharing from Logic to iTunes, AIF uncompressed), the sound of the piano converges onto a 1980's style ROMpler kind of sound.
I'll be taking your suggestions on the entire signal chain analysis but will first capture the audio as I hear it using a tool you recommended, and then sending that with the exported .AIF to the group here.
Thank you again!
Have just done some close examinations from a few of Qexl's points. They to me are excellent!
Along with Project Settings (Audio) in Logic, to a confirmed 48 kHz Sample Rate (under your File Menu), probably when you export (under File Menu {Export 1 Track as Audio File}) have the following selected:
Save Format: AIFF
Bit Depth: 32 Bit (float)
Normalize: OFF
Whenever you listen to playback in Logic you hear audio from a 32 Bit (float) depth. That allows the maximum dynamic range permitted audibly in Logic played. Next is 24 Bit and so forth.
Other selections —such like Normalize: Overload Protection Only— only further lessen dynamic ranges.
From various bit depths I exported files to a Bounce folder and afterwards opened those in my Quicktime player. My 32 Bit file matched what I heard previously in Logic, while the others are incrementally different.
Incidentally, I've just been demoing the Waves Abbey Road Studio 3 plugin —and like it very much. When I was a high school student I got to attend a NARAS seminar that was held at the former A&M Records studios. Which was located off of La Brea Avenue in Hollywood. With the plugin and Sony headphones, I feel as though I am listening from the kind of quality the JBLs that were at A&M supplied —in a fine beautifully modern (wood grained) mixing room.
The plugin which usually sells for $199 is available through a sale currently for $99. Since I got an email offer yesterday I can get if for $69 before Monday. If you’ve owned either the Nx Virtual Mix Room plugin or any Waves Abbey Road plugin at the time of Abbey Road Studio 3’s release, you qualify for the lower sale price.
You get the sale offers at Waves (https://www.waves.com/plugins/abbey-roa...o-3-plugin).
Excellent pk, tyvm Amen.
Since you use AR3, can you confirm it is NOT enabled in the chain when you bounce/export/mixdown to the final file?
I utterly remove headphone specific plugins any time I'm working on speakers (not just disable but remove). Routine is a thing - if I'm used to sitting down and thinking "Am I doing this in headphones Y/N?" then I'll have an easier time.
Whenever I go back in on headphones then any headphone plugin is only added as needed.
Reason: I have overlooked NX a few times in the past (very easy to do) and just a week ago showed off a new mix on speakers with the (highly recommended) Abbey Road 3 plugin enabled - panic.. panic?.. panic! Only realized the mistake when revisiting the mix the following day. At the time I kept thinking "This is not how I mixed this.. wha-the.. where's the width? where's the bass, why so muddy? Gah... look what's loaded on the master bus running in post.. DOH!"
Just to be sure there's no doubt if reading this.. the headphone plugin mentioned is for monitoring your mix while using headphones (and has specific settings for your own head/ear measures etc. and even headphone EQ matching etc.), it's not meant to be included as part of the effects chain you want to output to an audience.
On that, and on mastering.. well.. have I got a wall of text for you. I'm interested to await more info.. but if not the above, but really hoping it's just that you left AR3 on, it's such an easy to fix thing , then I kind of suspect a mix to mastering issue follows.
If you, pkward88, are intending to send your recording to a mastering engineer, you may need to save it as a 32 Bit (floating point unit) WAVE file that appreciably preservers sonic details (up close accents and dynamic transitions that are fast) very smoothly —but along with six decibels (6 dB) of ample headroom for any engineer to do his own thing.
About my initial entry, you’ll have no way to post a 32 Bit (float) file; even SoundCloud has set a limit no higher than 16 bits. Of which, completely, I was unaware.
Contrarily, if you decide to master in-house, I’ve recent discoveries likely pertinent.
Stay tuned!