Topic: Upgrading my piano rig

Hi all,

my 40th birthday is coming up and I'm getting to grips with my first Chopin Nocture, so I really feel I've earned myself an upgrade...

My current setup:
- Studiologic SL88 Grand keyboard
- Pianoteq stage, Ivory 2 Italian Grand
- a pair of Adam A5x speakers
- Beyerdynamic DT 770 headphones (250 Ohm)
- A laptop with occasionally very slightly annoying fan noise.

Everything is under / above my desk which is also where I work. The room is relatively small (about 14m^2 / 150 square feet) and all in all I'm not unhappy with the setup.

My budget is not really limited in the strict sense but an upgrade for more than 1000€ should really make a difference. If I get only minor benefits for a lot of money, I'd rather leave it as is.

Getting a vpc1 or an mp11 is unfortunately out of the question unless you can also come up with a way of fitting such a monster thing under the table and lifting it up enough so I can play.

--> Actually, if you do manage to do come up with a (reasonable) way to achieve that, I'll buy you a pianoteq piano of your choice


I'm thinking about one or two of the following things:
- get a Roland FP90 because it might have nicer action
- get a subwoofer because it might improve the sound which is not good below 50Hz
- get different speakers (same reason)
- get different headphones
- get a fanless PC
- ... something entirely different?

I also thought about getting the Ravenscroft 275 VI but somehow I don't think it'll be more responsive and playable than the Ivory and with said Italian Grand I already a "different" sounding piano when I occasionally get tired of the ever so slightly "too pure" pianoteq sounds.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks!

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

Move the Pianoteq condition slider to 0.18-0.21 - that 'fixes' a lot!

Happy Birthday!

Old enough to be considered seriously in the world....  :-)

- David

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

If I were you, I’d maybe consider a Roland RD-800 over the FP-90 since in addition to it having the same action as the latter, it has the added advantage of MIDI High Resolution Velocity Prefix control change number eighty-eight (88).  Which Pianoteq can utilize just as a Yamaha Disklavier might, since this software recognizes it in MIDI transmitted from the Roland RD-800.

The results of which are likely highly nuanced MIDI performances that sound actuality like the lively concert performances performed on Disklavier acoustic grand pianos.  To which you can attest from the Yamaha XP MIDI files available at the International e-Piano Competition website: http://www.piano-e-competition.com/midi_2009.asp#A, since they were taken from Disklaviers themselves.

Definitely, apart from the keyboard, I’d upgrade from Pianoteq Stage to Pianoteq Standard or Pro, if either might help me to better appreciate the full range of possibilities the Pianoteq software itself offers to any end user to celebrate!

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

keybender wrote:

... My budget is not really limited in the strict sense but an upgrade for more than 1000€ should really make a difference. If I get only minor benefits for a lot of money, I'd rather leave it as is.

My current setup:
- Studiologic SL88 Grand keyboard
- Pianoteq stage, Ivory 2 Italian Grand
- a pair of Adam A5x speakers
- Beyerdynamic DT 770 headphones (250 Ohm)
- A laptop with occasionally very slightly annoying fan noise.

Honestly I'd leave your setup as is; 1000€ isn't going to make a significant difference. Upgrading the keyboard, computer or speakers would be fun, but I'd only expect minor benefits from that budget. If it's really burning a hole in your pocket, better to think outside the box of other things you could spend it on (furniture? mixer? mics? portable busker setup? vacation in Las Vegas or Hawaii?)

Last edited by Groove On (22-08-2019 07:14)

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

If I were you, I’d maybe consider a Roland RD-800 over the FP-90 since in addition to it having the same action as the latter, it has the added advantage of MIDI High Resolution Velocity Prefix control change number eighty-eight (88).  Which Pianoteq can utilize just as a Yamaha Disklavier might, since this software recognizes it in MIDI transmitted from the Roland RD-800.

The results of which are likely highly nuanced MIDI performances that sound actuality like the lively concert performances performed on Disklavier acoustic grand pianos.  To which you can attest from the Yamaha XP MIDI files available at the International e-Piano Competition website: http://www.piano-e-competition.com/midi_2009.asp#A, since they were taken from Disklaviers themselves.

Definitely, apart from the keyboard, I’d upgrade from Pianoteq Stage to Pianoteq Standard or Pro, if either might help me to better appreciate the full range of possibilities the Pianoteq software itself offers to any end user to celebrate!

I think the RD-800 is the older model, right? The current one would be the RD-2000?
Upgrading Pianoteq might indeed be worth considering...

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

Groove On wrote:
keybender wrote:

... My budget is not really limited in the strict sense but an upgrade for more than 1000€ should really make a difference. If I get only minor benefits for a lot of money, I'd rather leave it as is.

My current setup:
- Studiologic SL88 Grand keyboard
- Pianoteq stage, Ivory 2 Italian Grand
- a pair of Adam A5x speakers
- Beyerdynamic DT 770 headphones (250 Ohm)
- A laptop with occasionally very slightly annoying fan noise.

Honestly I'd leave your setup as is; 1000€ isn't going to make a significant difference. Upgrading the keyboard, computer or speakers would be fun, but I'd only expect minor benefits from that budget. If it's really burning a hole in your pocket, better to think outside the box of other things you could spend it on (furniture? mixer? mics? portable busker setup? vacation in Las Vegas or Hawaii?)

You're probably right. Maybe I should wait until we have more space at some point.

It's not really burning a hole in pocket of course but I do like going shopping for gear

The only thing I'd like is an acoustic instrument but I have a feeling that might not fit under the table either Might still be getting a Clavichord though or more piano lessons.

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

Roland has to update its website: Roland RD-800.   Roland RD-2000 appears the company's latest rendition.

Personally, I like everything about your suggested Roland FP-90 with one exception; it lacks support for MIDI High Resolution Velocity Prefix control change number eighty-eight (88)!

Casio offers it in its PX-S1000 and PX-S3000.  But, the series seems limited to a 64 note off value only.  So, it fails to take full advantage of all Pianoteq's note off capabilities.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (22-08-2019 13:43)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

Keep those speakers and get a sub woofer.

Pianoteq 8, most pianos, Studiologic 73 Piano, Casio Px-560M, PX-S 3000, PX-S 1100, PX-S 7000, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro M3, SS Logic SSL 2

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

subwoofer for 14m2...  It is very doubtful that it will improve the sound for such a small room.

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

FWIW I am not a fan of Adam speakers. I find them hyped in the highs and causing hear fatigue. Take a look (and a listen!) to the ART RM5 monitors. Getting those made a big change in my setup. And within your budget

Yuri wrote:

subwoofer for 14m2...  It is very doubtful that it will improve the sound for such a small room.

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

A small space can be problematic, like Yuri points out, maybe bigger speakers or sub won't make a huge improvement. Depending, it could create mud instead - unless applied very subtly maybe.. but so many factors need to be seen/heard, like shape of space, reflective surfaces or opposite etc.

Really hard to say what would be good to try without experiencing the space

Your gear looks OK (unless really not liking something) - but to just improve the space, maybe some really simple things can help.. like hanging a drape on the walls in front and behind you when seated. In a tiny room, this may remove rebounding sound and can improve things significantly (can be a big bang for very few bucks). Heavier the drapes the more damping can happen - in case your room amps up muddy low-mids not just early reflective slapping etc.

You could put your noisy laptop to the side, behind a baffle (or couch etc.) and run wires or Bluetooth portable PC keyboard and mouse and an extra monitor over HDMI.. no need to have our PC next to us - put it in the next room if you want this way. Also very inexpensive.

Maybe have your 'normal' PC working desk on your left with laptop under desk behind a baffle + your dpiano keyboard and extra monitor and qwerty/mouse and monitors on an L angle.. that way, you might fit a monster slab keyboard of choice in - not just all front-facing.. I do this in my space, not to save room - but because I want my PC work to be separate from my playing space.. even if it's just a few metres away, it's like a holiday to load up Pianoteq and go sit at the piano - monitor on or off depending on if I'm recording or hopping around between presets or just playing/practicing with 1 preset.

Build a ropes & pulley contraption which lowers your keyboard down from the ceiling - or cut a hole in the floor and build an elevating platform which rises the keyboard up like the organs in a theatre Kind of joking about solving the big keyboard dilema

Probably best as said elsewhere, let these things breath for while, build the budget and in enough months you'll probably move on to the thing which stands out most to you.. keyboard, speakers etc.

Like any recommended speakers or keyboard, you really have to test for yourself IMO.. if relying on WOM or web forum, follow up by more research at minimum. I like new companies sometimes but the old makes are used in professional studios etc. for good reasons. But, if you don't intend to mix or produce your piano sound, but rather play like in player position with less regard to a DAW, then maybe an upgraded to 8inch speakers might be better than adding on a sub woofer? My general perception is that 8inch cabs would be my bare minimum for suspension of disbelief for any music.. 5 inch and less are "making do" or budget to be honest, but your brief here is "How might I spend about 1000 clams?" If spending more, there would be even more interesting options of course.

I'd probably be thinking, if more-or-less happy with things, that a next gen type jump in the whole experience might come with getting a good DAW and plugin setup. I've been experiencing a large increase in the quality of digital plugins in the last decade or so, such that I no longer pine for something like my 70s era desk experience. My first job was in a studio co-running a 48 channel desk - I feel I can do anything now in my DAWs with the various plugins which mimick the rack effects of the old days - and importantly also plugins which work for modern release rates etc.. some good $s could be sunk into that side of things, esp. if you want to record your music.

Headphones - unless unhappy, they could be fine. Like above, if you have a DAW and put a plugin like Waves Abbey Road Studio 3 on, you can help the whole earphone experience, no matter the brands of cans. I, and earlier tech like it have really made working in headphones for any length of time a rational expenditure of human energy

Just some thoughts - hoping you get things just the way you want them - and also wishing a happy birthday and maybe most important of all, well done! and hat tip for the nocturne! I feel the sense of achievement in your posting - and 100% it's one of the most wonderful things in our world as musicians - keep enjoying the magic of it keybender!, Cheers.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

Qexl wrote:

A small space can be problematic, like Yuri points out, maybe bigger speakers or sub won't make a huge improvement. Depending, it could create mud instead - unless applied very subtly maybe.. but so many factors need to be seen/heard, like shape of space, reflective surfaces or opposite etc.

Really hard to say what would be good to try without experiencing the space

Your gear looks OK (unless really not liking something) - but to just improve the space, maybe some really simple things can help.. like hanging a drape on the walls in front and behind you when seated. In a tiny room, this may remove rebounding sound and can improve things significantly (can be a big bang for very few bucks). Heavier the drapes the more damping can happen - in case your room amps up muddy low-mids not just early reflective slapping etc.

You could put your noisy laptop to the side, behind a baffle (or couch etc.) and run wires or Bluetooth portable PC keyboard and mouse and an extra monitor over HDMI.. no need to have our PC next to us - put it in the next room if you want this way. Also very inexpensive.

Maybe have your 'normal' PC working desk on your left with laptop under desk behind a baffle + your dpiano keyboard and extra monitor and qwerty/mouse and monitors on an L angle.. that way, you might fit a monster slab keyboard of choice in - not just all front-facing.. I do this in my space, not to save room - but because I want my PC work to be separate from my playing space.. even if it's just a few metres away, it's like a holiday to load up Pianoteq and go sit at the piano - monitor on or off depending on if I'm recording or hopping around between presets or just playing/practicing with 1 preset.

Build a ropes & pulley contraption which lowers your keyboard down from the ceiling - or cut a hole in the floor and build an elevating platform which rises the keyboard up like the organs in a theatre Kind of joking about solving the big keyboard dilema

Probably best as said elsewhere, let these things breath for while, build the budget and in enough months you'll probably move on to the thing which stands out most to you.. keyboard, speakers etc.

Like any recommended speakers or keyboard, you really have to test for yourself IMO.. if relying on WOM or web forum, follow up by more research at minimum. I like new companies sometimes but the old makes are used in professional studios etc. for good reasons. But, if you don't intend to mix or produce your piano sound, but rather play like in player position with less regard to a DAW, then maybe an upgraded to 8inch speakers might be better than adding on a sub woofer? My general perception is that 8inch cabs would be my bare minimum for suspension of disbelief for any music.. 5 inch and less are "making do" or budget to be honest, but your brief here is "How might I spend about 1000 clams?" If spending more, there would be even more interesting options of course.

I'd probably be thinking, if more-or-less happy with things, that a next gen type jump in the whole experience might come with getting a good DAW and plugin setup. I've been experiencing a large increase in the quality of digital plugins in the last decade or so, such that I no longer pine for something like my 70s era desk experience. My first job was in a studio co-running a 48 channel desk - I feel I can do anything now in my DAWs with the various plugins which mimick the rack effects of the old days - and importantly also plugins which work for modern release rates etc.. some good $s could be sunk into that side of things, esp. if you want to record your music.

Headphones - unless unhappy, they could be fine. Like above, if you have a DAW and put a plugin like Waves Abbey Road Studio 3 on, you can help the whole earphone experience, no matter the brands of cans. I, and earlier tech like it have really made working in headphones for any length of time a rational expenditure of human energy

Just some thoughts - hoping you get things just the way you want them - and also wishing a happy birthday and maybe most important of all, well done! and hat tip for the nocturne! I feel the sense of achievement in your posting - and 100% it's one of the most wonderful things in our world as musicians - keep enjoying the magic of it keybender!, Cheers.


Wow, thanks - good input!
But let me first correct two things:
- I'm not 40 yet - that'll happen in March
- 1000€ is not an upper limit - it's an arbitrary limit beyond which there has to be a substantial improvement for me to justify it (I'll be selling a car soon, so...).

Improving the space will be hard - it's the bedroom and my gf will want to have a say too when it comes to changing the way the room looks. I actually think the acoustics arent all bad since there is quite a bit of damping with a large open closet where we keep our clothes, a carpet, the bed and a large, full bookshelf. Maybe I'll take a couple of picture some day and then ask for advice on what to do... but you are right, this will likely give me a big improvement possibly even for free.

Regarding the speakers - I could potentially fit slightly larger ones (after improving the room, bass is indeed already a bit boomy). I was thinking focal shape 65, I think they might have a slightly warmer sound. The A5X sound good I think, I actually like their ... immediacy (for lack of a better description).

What really really bugs me though is that I can't even think of a buildable contraption that will move 70+ pounds of keyboard from under my desk to a playing position

Last edited by keybender (24-08-2019 11:57)

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

My suggestions:
1) Get the Midi piano keyboard you really want within your real budget (sitting on its own dedicated stand) and use a wireless USB keyboard like Logitech K400+  on top of the piano keys. Works fine here (well with my humble Casio) - tapping qwerty keys does not activate the hammer action keys below due to the spread weight. No damage to the keys either.  A bigger or more serious Kawai keyboard would be fine too - if I could justify it (sounds like you should be able to). Only need to consider the relative height of the computer desk (which can be adjusted).

2) Upgrade to Pianoteq Standard.

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

I'd just buy a Bose L1 With Tonematch as your speaker. You'll love it, I have a youtube of the setup if you want to see/hear it.

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

Mk4UmHa wrote:

I'd just buy a Bose L1 With Tonematch as your speaker. You'll love it, I have a youtube of the setup if you want to see/hear it.

Yes please. Looks interesting but I don't really understand what it is

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

keybender wrote:
Mk4UmHa wrote:

I'd just buy a Bose L1 With Tonematch as your speaker. You'll love it, I have a youtube of the setup if you want to see/hear it.

Yes please. Looks interesting but I don't really understand what it is

I think for the keyboard, what you need is the MK23 from FL Keys and this speaker setup.

https://youtu.be/lxlJjcKJO9c

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

I am reminded of the recommendation in other interest groups when similar questions arise, i.e. which upgrades will most improve my (fill in the blank).
More often than not it is "The singer not the song" or "The archer, not the arrow" so the answer is often LESSONS !
(or perhaps master classes)

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

aandrmusic wrote:

I am reminded of the recommendation in other interest groups when similar questions arise, i.e. which upgrades will most improve my (fill in the blank).
More often than not it is "The singer not the song" or "The archer, not the arrow" so the answer is often LESSONS !
(or perhaps master classes)


And when you can get it to sound better you play more..

Pianoteq 8, most pianos, Studiologic 73 Piano, Casio Px-560M, PX-S 3000, PX-S 1100, PX-S 7000, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro M3, SS Logic SSL 2

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

Kramster1 wrote:
aandrmusic wrote:

I am reminded of the recommendation in other interest groups when similar questions arise, i.e. which upgrades will most improve my (fill in the blank).
More often than not it is "The singer not the song" or "The archer, not the arrow" so the answer is often LESSONS !
(or perhaps master classes)


And when you can get it to sound better you play more..

That's not really possible at moment - I have to restrain myself a bit to avoid repetitive strain injuries-
For now I'm on holiday and completely in love with the iOS version of the Ravenscroft 275 VI. Such smoothness...

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

I played 2 of the actual Ravenscroft  models... my favorite pianos and made about 15  miles from me..

Pianoteq 8, most pianos, Studiologic 73 Piano, Casio Px-560M, PX-S 3000, PX-S 1100, PX-S 7000, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro M3, SS Logic SSL 2

Re: Upgrading my piano rig

Kramster1 wrote:

I played 2 of the actual Ravenscroft  models... my favorite pianos and made about 15  miles from me..

I can send you my address if you feel the need to get me one... as soon as I've figured out how to fit it under my desk