pianoteq and entropy tuner ?!

I use Ubuntu 14.04 and KXStudio.  I installed entropy tuner and ran it to see what would happen.  I wanted to find out if entropy tuner would recognize Jack, because if it does, then in theory, it would be possible to connect the sound output of Pianoteq into entropy tuner and maybe go through the entropy tuner analyses process on Pianoteq.  I concluded that entropy tuner does not seem to fully work with Jack, specifically in the input microphone portion of the software.  It appears the output can work with Jack.  It might be interesting to update entropy tuner to allow use of a Jack input as this might enable tuning analysis of Pianoteq using the software.

I tried 3 experiments with entropy tuner, none of them using a microphone (I don't have an acoustic piano):

1) Ran entropy tuner using my normal setup of PulseAudio running with Jack.  I was able to hear entropy tuner's opening piano notes when I ran the program and the program appeared to be functioning.  The only connections I saw was a midi connection in entropy tuner.  Sound was piped through PulseAudio.  I did not try to run the program since I don't have an acoustic piano.
2) Turned off PulseAudio and ran entropy tuner.  The program played its opening piano sounds, but then locked presenting its "initializing please wait" window.  I observed a midi connection active and an output "entropypianotuner" jack audio connection, which why I heard sound output.
3) Changed my setup to allow an alsa "virtual" sound card.  PulseAudio was turned off.  Results were the same as experiment 2.

Experiment 4: I connected Pianoteq through NonMixer into PulseAudio Jack Source using Jack (improved experiment 1).  When I play piano sounds on Pianoteq, Entropy Tuner volume control mixer registers the sounds!  So, I found a round about way to route the sound so that Pianoteq feeds directly into Entropy Tuner.  I also had to plug my microphone jack so I don't get any interference from outside the computer (i.e. sound from speakers feeding into Entropy Tuner or other room sound).  Next step will be to see what happens if I try to analyze the sound using Entropy Tuner.  I will report back if I get anything interesting to happen.  I am not a piano tuner, so will have to see if I can make sense of all of this.

Hi!
I configured pianoteq using entropy tuner. It was interesting)
The idea! Who else could create a plugin that could create a setting in pianoteq using data from a file entropy tuner? (In particular to transfer data volume and overtones inharmonocity)
So you can easily transfer any "live" piano home and use them.
Thank you)

The entropy tuning method is indeed a very nice idea.  It would be interesting if you could post an example of some short piece comparing the default tuning with the entropy tuning!

BTW, when using the detune panel (also available in Pianoteq standard: click on the Diapason menu and select "Detune notes"), you can either change manually the detuning of each note with the mouse, or enter all values at once by copy-pasting them from an editor, for example entering the following 88 values:
[-3, -3, -3, -3, -3, -3, -2, -2, -2, -2, -2, -2, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]
will alter the default tunging by lowering the first six notes by 3 cents, the next six ones by 2 cents, etc.

If you are using the D4 piano, you will need 105 values instead of 88 (if using the extended range mode).

mwinthrop, entropy tuner it contains an error:https://youtu.be/IYpJX7QL1R8
It should be set only by the phase display. I got the following changes: Detune = [-5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -21, -4, -9, -23, -11, -1, -21, 0, -1, -8, -7, -4, -3, -3, -1, 0, +3, 0, -3, -2, -2, -1, 0, 0, -1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, -1, 0, -1, +1, +1, +1, +2, +2, +3, +2, -1, +1, 0, 0, -1, +1, -1, +1, 0, 0, +1, -2, 0, -1, 0, +1, -1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, -1, -1, +1, 0, +1, +1, 0, +1, 0, +1, 0, 0, -4, -6, -4, -5, -2, -4, -4, -4, -9, -7, -8, -10, -15, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]
Piano D4. Listen to the tuner after turning off "unison width".

Not really.

I happen to like Pianoteq's tuning.  That said I have stretched the upper region for Debussy's Claire de Lune.  (made sharper)

I have not had time to try again yet.  Here is what I got when I tried the tuner:

Detune = [-5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, 0, +1, -8, -1, -8, -8, -10, -6, +4, -8, -1, -5, -5, -2, -8, +2, -5, -1, -2, -5, -1, -7, +2, -5, -3, 0, -5, +2, -6, +1, -3, -5, +1, -4, +4, -3, -2, +1, -5, +4, -3, +2, -2, -4, +4, -2, +3, -6, 0, 0, -6, 0, -7, 0, -2, -5, -1, -6, 0, -5, -2, -3, -8, -2, -8, 0, -5, -7, 0, -9, -5, -8, -8, -6, -12, -7, -12, -11, -14, -15, -18, -25, -25, -30, -31, -30, -35, -34, -42, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]

I think I did something wrong, because the high notes were all significantly flatter than any of the other notes.

I think the entropy tuner software maker might consider using Pianoteq to improve the software as it might be faster to try algorithms out on a software piano rather than a real one.  Another advantage of using Pianoteq is you can precisely measure the changes in the piano tuning since it is all digitized where this would probably not be possible to do with an acoustic piano.  The documentation for entropy tuner warns people they could seriously damage their piano by changing its tuning with this software.  There are no worries about that with Pianoteq.

O.K. I don't understand the error - could you help me better understand what you mean?

My opinion is that in the end, the ear must make the final decision on tuning.  All the rest is just a guide.  Pianoteq is nice as it does report precise tuning of individual notes in "cents."  Still you have to decide if the manipulations are aurally pleasing.  One thing about Pianoteq is that you can create tunings for specific musical compositions.  Debussy tends to use wide intervals which show off the quality of the tuning.  He had a great ear, and I presume a well tuned piano to work with in terms of developing his compositions.  Strings and winds can bend the pitch which is fixed on a piano, and more related to the inharmonicity of the piano itself.  In other words, the upper notes must sing out well against the harmonics of the lower notes.

Does that mean you're now satisfied with the result when tuning Pianoteq with the Entropy Tuner?

If yes it may be worth offering the tuning as a configuration (if that's possible).

I understand. I'd consider this a validation of the tuners capabilities.

I can also imagine that Pianoteq could serve as a nice playground: It should easily be possible to engineer stronger inharmonicities into a Pianoteq instrument and subsequently tune it with the entropy tuner.

Anyhow, there are already a lot of instruments in PT and in principle the process of recording notes ist obsolete if there was an interface between the two programs. Therefore it should be possible to automatically tune all instruments from within PT by using ET.

Curiosity entropy tuner offers the option settings:
Detune = [-31, -27, -24, -18, -17, -15, -11, -12, -16, -17, -5, -6, -7, -8, -7, -5, -6, -4, -2, -2, -8, -2, -3, -2, -1, 0, -2, -2, -1, 0, 0, 0, -2, -1, -2, -1, 0, +1, -1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, -1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, -1, -2, +1, +1, +2, 0, -1, 0, 0, 0, +1, +2, +1, 0, 0, 0, +1, +1, +1, 0, 0, 0, 0, +2, +1, -1, -2, -1, 0, 0, -2, 0, 0, 0, 0, +3, 0, -5]
For model B with a long tool 2.11. Stretching octave set to 1.
And
Detune = [-19, -14, -14, -14, -14, -10, -6, -11, -11, -14, -10, -9, -9, -6, -7, -5, -8, -5, -7, -5, -10, -3, -3, -4, -2, -3, -1, 0, -1, -1, -1, -2, -2, -2, -3, -3, -1, +1, -3, -1, 0, -1, -1, 0, -1, 0, 0, 0, +1, 0, -2, -1, -2, -1, -1, 0, -1, -1, +1, 0, +1, +1, +1, 0, +1, 0, 0, 0, -1, 0, 0, 0, +2, +3, +2, 0, 0, -1, 0, 0, -1, -1, -2, -2, -3, -3, -6, -9]
For model B with a long tool 3.14. Stretching octave set to 1.

Thanks to Google Translate, I can answer you (or maybe I should answer in French and let you translate )

I used a very small portion of the 2009 performance of Piotr Rozanski from the Minnesota International Piano-e-Competition. The whole sonata is over 40 minutes long, you can download it if you want to hear it in its entirety, very good performance of this difficult piece. My goal was to choose a small portion to prove my point, not too long because the difference is subtle and memory for such comparison is short often needing repeated hearing to confirm an impression.

Oh, sorry , hurry , I copied the Russian text, not in the English translator

I am trying to play with the entropy tuning in pianoteq.  How do you paste the detuning parameters into pianoteq?  I clicked on the Mu and then the detune but I don't see a place to paste the 88 detune values.

I tried keyboard mapping > paste from clipboard but I get a message saying "cannot parse scala KBM text: Invalid keymap size at line 1.

Do I simply paste [-19, -14, .... , +3, 0, -5] ?  Or do I need the "Detune = " at the beginning?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

version 6 -- standard

Copy the settings into the buffer (along with the word "detune") and paste in this window: