Topic: Am I doing something wrong?

Hi,

This is my first post.  I own Pianoteq stage and have it connected to my Kawai CN27.  I don't hear much of a difference between the K2 (prelude) on Pianoteq and the EX Concert Grand on the CN27.  The attack is more pronounced on the K2 and that's about it.  I was expecting the difference to be bigger.  Am I doing something wrong or am I just not very good at hearing the differences or are the differences not that big to begin with? 

I'm not sure about my setup.  Let me tell you how I've configured things.

1) piano MIDI line out to Presonus Audiobox USB96 MIDI line in
2) Presonus USB to Lenovo G50 laptop USB (running Pianoteq)
3) Sennheiser HD280 Pro headphones to laptop
4) Active MIDI inputs: Audiobox USB96 MIDI in
5) Audio Device Type: ASIO
6) Device: ASIO4ALL v2
7) Active Output Channels: HD Audioport 1 and  HD Audioport 2
8) Sample Rate: 44100 Hz
9) Audio Buffer Size: 896 samples (20.3 ms)
10) Bit Depth 32 bits

Any help/feedback would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

Hi drpaul09,

I have a similar Kawai upright digital piano - maybe older than yours and a recent MP11.

For me, Pianoteq is the much preferred tool for audio - keyboards are Kawai for me but sound Pianoteq - I never use the Kawai sounds - which is OK - I still enjoy knowing the are there because they are quite good but I get much more out of Pianoteq in terms of realism, flexibility and changeability, access of presets and so forth.

Thanks for listing your setup. (without more time - hope I'm not skipping anything)

Some things.. clues adding up to me..

Some USB MIDI cable may carry audio signal as well as MIDI..

Headphones to laptop - maybe doesn't make sense on reading that (maybe I'm missing something) I would think you plug your cans into your external box..

Is your digital piano firing audio via USB cable to the internal sound card?

On the MP11, I can set local MIDI only if I recall it's name correctly (so it doesn't needlessly send its inbuilt audio signal anywhere). The CN27 might not have that capability..

but even if it doesn't..

You can right click the system sound icon (assuming Windows) and select playback devices and disable your internals.. leaving your external box working alone.. then you may not hear anything in your headphones if plugged into the laptop..

Next, plug the headphones into your external box - and you should hear the Pianoteq signal - and your laptop might save a few CPU cycles to boot.

Could be completely wrong - but based on the list and my similar gear and experience going in a few circles over the years, it's something to rule out or try if you haven't already.

Hope that works - if not, do let us know - and maybe someone else can see something to offer too.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

I would like add to the list of suggestions to confirm that the velocity curve of your Kawai matches with Pianoteq. You might need to create a custom curve if the presets don't work for you. Also play with the dynamics slider and the output menu. Finally, 20ms latency seems quite high to me. I have 2.3ms latency.

Last edited by MrRoland (10-03-2019 23:17)

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks to Qexl and MrRoland for their replies.  I'll try to respond to your suggestions in order.

First of all, I should say that I can use Pianoteq to change the sounds dramatically.  I take this to mean that something is working.  It's just not clear to me that the sounds are "better".  I guess that I was expecting to hear Pianoteq and say "Wow, now THAT's what a piano sounds like".  Maybe my expectations were too high.  Or, maybe I expected it to be too easy.  Maybe it requires more fiddling with the dials to find a combination that is clearly superior.

I have no idea if the USB MIDI cable is carrying an audio signal...

I understand why you would be surprised by my hooking the earphones to the laptop.  I've hooked the earphones to the external box and I hear nothing.

I have no idea if my piano is firing audio via USB to the internal sound card...

I cannot set local MIDI on the CN27.

I went to settings>system>sound on my laptop and now output device = speakers (AudioBox USB96) and input device = line (AudioBox USB96).  The other option for the input was microphone.

I've created a custom velocity curve but I'm not sure if it is good or bad.  It is S-shaped.

Now the sample rate = 44100 hz and the buffer size = 512 samples (11.6 ms)  I don't when or why I made the change...

I've done a fair amount of Googling the differences between modeled piano sounds and sampled piano sounds.  Apparently some people prefer one and others prefer the other.  Maybe I'm just one of those people that don't have a strong preference.  Maybe the fact that I'm a beginning piano student (2-3 years) explains why I can't hear the differences.  Another clue is that my acoustic piano is a 50+ year old Kimball consolette that is no longer able to keep a tune.  Fortunately, neither the Kawai nor Pianoteq sound like it.  ;-)

I'd be happy to hear (and try) more suggestions to make my system work better.  Likewise, I'd be happy to read suggestions on what I should be listening for.  Maybe I'm not listening for the right hings.

Thanks.

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

drpaul09 wrote:

I'd be happy to hear (and try) more suggestions to make my system work better.  Likewise, I'd be happy to read suggestions on what I should be listening for.  Maybe I'm not listening for the right hings.

Thanks.


There are other different presets, not necessarily K2, that you may like but do not know exactly what you understand as real. However, a very good preset with a lot of "weight" and "depth" is the Steinway D wide player. This preset is the richest in enhancements. It has all the effects carefully adjusted to boost the main frequencies, equalization adjustment, plus a full microphone range with five strategically positioned microphones. The dynamics of this preset is also "deeper", allowing for a more dense response when gently touched.

Respeito, Esforço e Sabedoria

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

Pianoteq on your computer should sound hardly dissimilar to examples on the Pianoteq listen by instrument page (https://www.pianoteq.com/listen_by_instrument), if your computer has been configured appropriately.

Perhaps you will want to make a comparison on that page from a few of your devices (alternate computer, smart TV, mobile device, phone, Etc.).  Maybe connect the devices, along with your mentioned computer, on which you’ve installed Pianoteq  —to your audio system via WiFi or Bluetooth for the comparison.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

I'm not sure you have a real problem.  Firstly you haven't really used Pianoteq much and just trying one preset won't tell you much.  I note you have Stage and I have to tell you that while Stage is very good (and the presets are identical to other versions), the Microphone placing system in Standard is well worth having apart from all the other tweaking features you get.  Upgrading to standard also gets you access to more FXP features - have a look at the FXP Corner.  Stage doesn't fully utilize FXP, whereas Standard does.

But even with Stage you have't really experienced all the tweaking available.  Most significant would be reverb and equalization (there are two types of equalization in Pianoteq).  Choice and tweak of reverb makes a really huge difference, as do all the adjustments possible within any given reverb type.  Equalization choices can be a big help too.  It's worth spending a lot of time working with just those two settings in my opinion to get what you want.  You'll probably very quickly end up with your own set of custom presets for these.

It's also worth remembering that from experience it's Pianoteq's responsiveness (not sampled) to touch when playing (not testing - playing !) that makes it.  I've use the K2 more under v6+ that v5 and it's improved a lot.  I've read the same thing from many users on the forum : playing it in pieces is where the difference is felt.

Hard to know if "sounds like my CN27" should be considered a criticism or a compliment.  After all, Kawai are trying to emulate their flagship grand piano's sound, so is sounding like it really a problem ?  It might be unrealistic to expect a "night and day" experience as I'd expect Kawai to do a decent job.  I originally chose Pianoteq myself because comparing it to other (huge) sampled pianos really was night and day.  Only the largest (GB+) sampled libraries came close to the same experience.  I do think they've incrementally improved it with time (and credit to them for continuing development).  But I never compared it to "real" pianos - that just isn't useful as the variables in recording and sound reproduction (e.g. monitors) are so great.

If you have the K2 then I presume you have the D as well.  And don''t forget the freebies (the KiViR set) - well worth having IMO.  Remember that Pianoteq lets you switch between a much wider range of pianos sounds.

I think with time you'll come to think that Pianoteq (any version) gives you a lot more flexibility and control than a DP.  But I think you do need to give it more time and experiment more with the software, presets and (particularly) reverb.

Also try the "Binaural" setting if you use headphones.  This isn't to everyone's taste, but I think it makes a difference sometimes.  It's a sound setting that tries to emulate the human player's perspective.

StephenG

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

Good news.  I am able to hear when I plug my headphones into the Presonus headphone jack.  Unfortunately, I now hear crackling every 2-3 seconds.  I can reduce this by increasing the audio buffer size to 2048 samples but then this increases my latency to 46 ms, which is far too long.  So, I do think that there is something "wrong" with my setup.  I should be able to have no crackling and a reasonable latency at the same time.

I also notice that there is a difference in the sound that I hear when I push the Pianoteq piano keys with my mouse and when I push the Kawai keys with my fingers.  There seems to be quaver in the sound when I push the Kawai keys but not when I push the Pianoteq keys.  I tried to use Pianoteq to record the difference but it seems like the difference disappeared when I listened to the recording.  I'll keep exploring this.

I've also upgraded to standard Pianoteq.  Boy, there are many more settings to explore.

Per Professor Leandro Duarte's suggestion, I listened to the Steinway D (wide) player.  I liked that better.

I've thought about sjgcit's comments.  Maybe there isn't a problem (except for the latency, crackling, and quaver).  It seems like Pianoteq is an excellent tool for creating the exact sound that one is looking for.  Unfortunately, I don't really know what sound I am looking for.  I'm just turning the knobs and trying different things with the hope that I'll run across something that will "sound more like a piano".  This probably isn't the best approach.  Finally, after doing some more research I've come to the conclusion that Pianoteq's biggest strength is its ability to feel like a piano and respond to the player's touch like a piano.  Since I'm not an especially good piano player I'm not in a position to truly appreciate this strength.

Thanks for everybody's suggestions.  I'm still interested in ideas on how to eliminate the crackling, latency and quaver...

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

Your CPU might be the issue. You might try reducing "polyphony" significantly (under "perf"). If you describe what type of piano sound is your ideal someone might be able to point you in the right direction.

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

Yes, CPU could well be a factor. It could be that there are background processes that are hogging your resources and affecting Pianoteq performance. This is worth a read: https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/glitchfree/

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

Glad to know you've seen some progress drpaul09.

There are so many specific things to check for regarding crackling and odd audio, and a few good guides I've seen over the years.. I'd suggest a web search for "setting up PC for audio" to reveal a bunch of things to consider.

Also many threads here could contain just the cure you seek.

Things to look for:

In your OS settings, set your PC to be in full power mode, no power saving setting. (you can always go low power for other tasks, but it can quite notoriously cause glitches with audio processing).

Set the OS to 'prefer background processes' rather than 'programs'. Similar to above in result.

Make sure your external unit can handle natively the settings you have in ASIO4all prefs - otherwise there may be some on-the-fly conversion taking up cycles and causing latency issues. ASIO4all remembers settings for programs, so you shouldn't have to do that each time you open Pianoteq.

If crackling seems more 'analog' compared to 'solid state' in nature (electric crunching and popping vs. flatter fuzz/buzzing), check if a physical volume knob or slider is making that noise (with some knobs or 'pots' dust is a given - so a little gentle tweaking can alleviate - there may be differing advice about lubrications in spray form or carbon powder etc.).

Something I found fixed a similar issue for me - and that was to replace the USB MIDI out cable (from keyboard to PC - available online or music shop for maybe $5 to $30-ish from sort of recent memory) with a cable like this: Old style MIDI connectors to USB in to CP. So, this takes away any glitch or sluggishness caused by whatever mystery 'bandwidth' issues caused by USB audio junk in the way of 'clean' otherwise tiny and super fast MIDI signals between dpiano keyboard to PC. I miss nothing from not having USB to USB.. so always like to offer this advice, it worked for me - as did the above over a long time-frame.

Other things to consider may include fairly generic things like, how full is the hard drive? If you have 16Gig of RAM, you may be better off to not have a 'page file' (not for everyone but works for me)..

Did you install drivers for the external unit?

Check if you have a anti-virus program running which may be aggressively scanning input signals..

Quit other apps or suites and overlays like Steam. Luckily for my main PC I don't seem to need to unload things before using audio, but on other machines I do.

Forgot to as what CPU you have - but if it's older, or not i3 or better, i5 or i7 it may need more of the above, really going to make the system lean so as to really give it a chance. But, even with recent fast CPUs, a lot of things like all the above can still matter for audio.

No matter the CPU, check what "junk" might be loading up at system startup - and with care, 'disable' things you know you don't need.

Reboot. Not every time, or every day or week even. A solid system can stay 'up' (hibernate when not being used). I feel that the stress of fully rebooting can cause some issues because for a long time after you boot up, system checks and anti-virus checks can be randomly grasping at the CPU.

If you can, find out a little more about what CPU settings your machine is capable of - you may be able to change some things in BIOS settings (pressing a key at boot up to enter 'ye olden days' type interface to change some seriously powerful settings). One such thing to look for there, is CPU scaling - which you may want to turn 'off'. The CPU 'changing frequency' to handle different power states can be a big difference. In effect, like setting the OS to full power (rather than power saving), now the CPU will try to always run at top speed (distinct from overclocking - I'd recommend avoiding that if everything works fine without that) - but setting the CPU in BIOS to run at full power can mean your fans run hotter, it's less likely you'll bother running lower power settings because Windows may now not be able to 'slow your CPU' - so in effect, this BIOS setting might mean you're going to get used to your machine using more power and running hotter - which shouldn't matter as much in this decade as it might have 20yrs ago.

Sometimes, poor and crackling audio may be caused by something in the chain of volumes. In an instance where volumes are set on the external unit, there may be two knobs (not just the one) to consider.. such as 'monitor mix' 'headphones'.. 'main level' and depending what you have plugged where, you may need to balance the signal to find an optimum signal (if one volume in a chain is too low, then turning up the following one may result in a thin sound, and vice versa). For a lot of normal external units, beginning with both physical controllers on mid range settings, push one higher to see if it's making your sound richer, and if not, try the other set higher.. somewhere there's going to be a sweet spot and unless it's a seriously uber studio appliance, you're probably going to be fine with both somewhere over 12 oclock. That's of course, if 2 volume controllers exist on your external unit. There may be more volume controls too, which may only apply to speaker outputs etc. On my device a common volume controller which handles signal for headphone and speakers is the one labelled monitor mix - and the headphones volume is just a headphone symbol, while the other control handling only speaker outs is the one labelled 'main level'.

Anyway, after a little more time (and esp. with Pianoteq Standard) I'm sure you'll be able to find all the gremlins and settings to make your sound greatly enjoyable.

In terms of inside Pianoteq, I definitely recommend the following:

Understand that, no matter how you tweak things - you can always start over from a default setting so experiment as you wish - you may find ways to change everything about your sound in time.

Don't overlook 'simple' tools like EQ - I bore myself bringing that up but it has to be said, that after more experimenting with your curve (don't stop actually tweaking it - look to the Pianoteq Keyboard velocity curves page) for some which hopefully match your keyboard. After years of using Pianoteq, I still find improvements.. just last week iirc - and again, wow, it does seem again very much like a 50% improvement in realism/playability. So don't stop - spend at least a few minutes a week if you can to see if you can improve it.

Save your own presets in custom folders - easily done within the interface - and this applies to your effects settings too, one by one, or as a rack! - name them so you remember them "70s disco" or "Bach".

Over time, you'll not only have your library of essential defaults but your own history of tweaks and attempts to revisit.. don't be afraid to save versions like "Bach 01" - you'll find it helpful to 'hear' what you were thinking way back then - and realise how you may have gone wrong haha.. I have a kind of graveyard of old settings which is amusing now - but seriously, it's a great learning curve and you'll over time find it so logical and close to reality - from tuning etc to audio output like compression.

All my best and thanks to all above who post to help so generously - hoping you find some confluence of the above lead to really positive results for you!

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

You certainly seem to have a load of peripheral stuff which I know nothing about.  I connect up the midi leads and UM1 adapter to the computer (my piano has no USB MIDI connect up lead like most do) and run the headphone output back into the piano "audio in", though I could use headphones directly from the computer and obviate this step.
There's only AS104ALL to load, and everything works fine, on a small 2GB ram computer.

Is there any need for all this other stuff?

Btw, I don't know if K2 is supposed to be an emulation of a Kawai acoustic, but I too, always think it sounds like a Kawai digital such as yours!  The voices on the CN27 are very nice, I prefer them to most others in the shop when I go there.

I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

I imagine a K2 is secretly a Kawai!  It always seems inferred.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Am I doing something wrong?

Modartt have never implied it's a Kawai, AFAIK.  I think it's an assumption that's being made by people.  It would, however, be interesting to compare controlled recording in the real world (of whatever model people think it's supposed to be) with carefully made recordings of the K2 using appropriately selected microphone and reverb settings.  The closest I came was trying to reproduce an RX-3 sound from a video reasonably well.

That said, do any piano experts (or Kawai owners :-) ) know what model(s) Kawai has a "string length" ( = speaking length ? ) of 2m 11cm ( 6' 11" for those of you still cursed by metric :-) ), which is the string length of the K2.

Just so Kawai know this, people like me interested in owning a 50 euro reproduction of their piano sound (without a good quality Kawai keyboard !) are definitely not going to be stealing sales from your concert grand range.  If that's what is stopping you letting Modartt have an official authorized go at modelling your piano (which they'd doubtless do well), then it's wasted effort - I have no plans to ever spend a house price on a piano (alas) (unless you're including a house in the price of the piano !).  I'm alas not even likely to be able to buy one of your good keyboards (but that's a maybe someday if I can use it with Pianoteq).

In fairness to Kawai they are protecting their own DP sales, something Steinway and other companies Modartt work with don't have to do.

StephenG