Topic: alternate tunings and tonality

Lots of discussion on alternate tunings these days. I occasionally give it try myself, although I have no deep knowledge of it. Here is my naive question for the more knowledgeable folks:
Obviously tunings like meantone, pythagorean, just, etc require to select and play an appropriate scale (key signature). However, I find that well tempered, Werckmeister and Kinberger seem to allow playing in many different keys. I am right about this? However, since in any of these tunings the half tones are unequal, some keys will sound "better" than others, no? What kind of rule (other than using my ears!) can one follow to select a key for say, Werckmeister III tuning?

Last edited by aWc (19-02-2019 19:29)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

I would please, appreciate any replies to this too,
as I was wondering the same thing.
thank you for starting this thread aWc.

I played around with tunings a little in PT and also with
Soniccouture the Hammersmith (its a Steinway D).
and also read a little about tunings.
wow there is an incredible amount to learn about that!!!

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Hey aWc,

I'm putting this at top because it probably gets to some pretty seminal grist relating to the main question (quoting from the below linked PDF)..


https://stereosociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/BACHandTUNING-screen.pdf wrote:

"
Kirnberger laid strict rules for dealing with well temperament transposition.  He divided all the major keys into three classes:


Class 1 = contains the keys of C major, D major, F major, and G major

Class 2 = contains the keys of E major, F-sharp major, A major, and B major

Class 3 = contains the keys of D-flat major, E-flat major, A-flat major, and B-flat major


The minor keys were also divided into three classes, according to the same basic characteristics rule:


1 = D minor, E minor, A minor, and B minor are the purest.

2 = C-sharp minor, D-sharp minor, F-sharp minor, and G-sharp minor are less pure.

3 = C minor, F minor, G minor, and B-flat minor are the least pure, and thus the saddest.


This applies also to the minor keys; those with the purest thirds have the loveliest and most pleasing tenderness and sadness, while those which are the most removed from this purity have a character made up of the most painful and repugnant feelings (Kirnberger in Steblin, p. 86)


"


and so on - and each different decade before and after, and all who also saw it thus or differently make up the corpus we are left with - and the music inspired by those ideas.

You can't go wrong by looking at this thread about parameters for Pianoteq needed to re-create a historic instrument - begun by an extraordinary aficionado of certain tunings related.

I'd also launch into wikipedia Meantone Temperament article - then follow links to the many related topics.

People like _DJ_ of this forum have posted amazing links in the past to documents about these things and also David Pinnegar is quite the advocate of unequal temperaments, who is inviting comment on tunings here on this Pianoteq forum thread - worth following and commenting - time permitting and also following up on what David's doing in this area of thought in current times - marvelous stuff.

Today's musical landscape is attached to MIDI standard, equal tuning etc.. mainly thanks to synthesis and early development which kind of put a virtual hammer onto the last nail in the coffin - or so it seems. I'm glad to see resurgence in interest in tunings - I've always played with these things in mind - never prescribing to an idea of 'one tuning' for all - but maybe some major tunings for most perhaps - but these individual tunings are to be cherished and enjoyed - they are a product of not only time, but incredible work by many of the best minds in music's history. Even in a space where, nothing is absolutely correct, there's a lot of fantastic attempts which lead to some ingenious things.. like enharmonic keyboards with 19 keys per octave - it's a complex of rabbit holes once you dig.

In essence, in eras going back to antiquity, composers and musicians were always working with the tunings and instruments of the day. Luckily with Pianoteq we can readily experiment (in seconds) with tunings which would take hours with real pianos (and expertise in the form of an experienced piano tuner).

Some notes by composers (like Bach) have been quite detailed, regarding how they feel the various keys might be considered.

In the end, there are historical records (composers describing how they work with these specific unequal temperaments) and there is ample undocumented results too, leaving us all to simply guess.. but in the world of musicology, there are unlimited wealth of documents, ideas and speculations.

Lastly, there is your ears.. what sounds right for you. I love experimenting and have some beloved tunings - they each may be specific to particular music on a particular piano etc. but I'm enjoying the journey toward finding my ideal tuning which might work for most music I play and most pianos. All as much about acquiring this kind of rare information, learning from those in the discussions, listening to results, then living it by osmosis over time and applying it as we go to our own musical tastes.

I love the idea that, if I were a composer for piano a few hundred years ago, and if I might have had some success, I might have worked closely with a piano tuner to 'sweeten' or 'sour' my piano for specific works. All done with a few clicks now - but I can only imagine this would heighten the need for real world piano tuners in turn, as more and more of us software tweakers begin to make it into concert halls with our newly attained fancy ideas and super-odd requirements for our own tunings

So many interesting ideas abound. Here's a PDF which is full of consuming ideas about tuning inre Bach's era. (about midway downthe document you find some illuminating specifics about how tunigns were thought about).

An example from that document, includes how Johann Georg Neidhardt wrote, in 1724, about creating 4 different tunings (from a previous single one) and likening these as different evolutionary levels of civilization..

Neidhardt I tuning: "1724 Village"
Neidhardt II tuning: "1724 Small Town"
Neidhardt III tuning: "1724 Large City"

So, even if we get to grips with "C minor is the saddest key" or "to me, the saddest is G flat minor" or "nothing beats plain old C major - I don't know what the fuss is" (and it goes way deeper than this of course) and following on.. we begin to note that the artistic constructs these great people were dealing with, were sincerely devoted to quite disparate and interesting ideas, even outside of the religious, or even at odds with their contemporaries.

_DJ_ has posted some interesting links in his comments over the years - and I seem to remember one which had a modern info-graphic style presentation of Bach's era, which keys were considered sweet, happy, sad etc. With more searching (of DJ's comments or online) I'm sure similar kinds of finds are possible - maybe DJ will post these again or other ones of interest some time also.

Anyway, just some ramblings from me in a time-out - I'm less professionally schooled than many here, so as a fascinated lay person and composer with my own ideas, these ideas are entirely in all our wheelhouses if history is anything to go by. Not to say what we come up with replaces, improves or anything that has gone before - but if no human is out there trying, that's a sad thing.. so I say go at it one and all - it's a fascinating world of info - and maybe music into the future will be so much better for it

You know, it could be a full time thing posting more info - there's so much out there - truly fascinating topic and it's a pleasure to examine the other threads here about it, and esp. to Philippe and Modartt for allowing us such a luxuriant tool! - and my sincere thanks go to those before me, who have shared these topics and ideas and to aWc for asking the question. The world of music and human kind can only be the better for it.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

aWc wrote:

Werckmeister and Kinberger seem to allow playing in many different keys. I am right about this?

yes.  this is the meaning and point of "well temperament" vs older unequal temperaments.   well temperament is then distinguished from "equal temperament" in that it (well temperament) seeks to retain the "color" of the various keys (and their associated affects) while making as many as possible musically reasonable to play in.  properly mathematical equal temperament (ie "modern ET"), which uniformly levels out all keys (and thus removing all color), doesn't really exist until 1911 (though in 1885 Ellis comes awfully close).  all the so called "quasi-equal" or "equal" temperaments prior to this still retain some degree of color.   

However, since in any of these tunings the half tones are unequal, some keys will sound "better" than others, no? What kind of rule (other than using my ears!) can one follow to select a key for say, Werckmeister III tuning?

Qexl has already covered a lot of ground there with his nice post (and thanks for the kind words, Qexl!), but I'll just add that the whole idea of "color" and the associative meanings/affects of the various keys was part and parcel of music making until the end of the 19th century (so basically any composer you care to name from the medieval epoch down through the romantic period was intensely concerned with this) when ET comes along to wash it all away.  Knowledge of key characteristics was considered basic musical literacy and it's an absolute shame that it's been largely lost now, though reassuring that it's been gradually clawing it's way back through the "early music" movement over the past several decades.

Schubart is largely attributed with having codified the common (albeit rather reductionist) view of key color.  You can find a nice summary of it here ==> http://www.truetemperament.com/site/gfx...olours.pdf

Mattheson's Der Vollkommene Capellmeister (1739) was also hugely influential in the 18th and early 19th centuries.  do a google search for "Mattheson" "Affektenlehre" (doctrine of affects) and you'll turn up gobs of interesting bits.

finally, i never tire of this gem which visually depicts many of the significant keys throughout history ==> http://www.rollingball.com/images/HT.pdf

cheers,
dj

Matthieu 7:6

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Some people with synaesthesia do actually 'see' the different keys in glorious Technicolor.

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

My old Ensoniq SD1 keyboard had alternate tunings and .... you could flip the keyboard so low notes on the right and high on the left... boy that was fun

Last edited by Kramster1 (20-02-2019 13:12)
Pianoteq 8, most pianos, Studiologic 73 Piano, Casio Px-560M, PX-S 3000, PX-S 1100, PX-S 7000, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro M3, SS Logic SSL 2

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Wow, thanks for all the responses. Lots of information to dig into. Actually my first experiments with alternate tunings were on my Casio WK-500 (a $300 "workstation"!) that actually allows you to pick from 12 preset scales, and even has a microtonal editor to roll your own! The Roland FP-80 has only preset scales, but of course with Pianoteq, the sky is the limit.

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

I also thank everyone for all your fascinating replies.

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

This got me thinking that all tuning systems are of course compromises. Equal tuning has the same detuning of thirds in every key, and keys tend to have less individual character.
Unequal tunings can provide more tuneful intervals...in a limited number of keys, and/or create different characters for different keys. You could say that one person's compromise is another person's opportunity (or not!). However, as technology marches on, I can see that these compromises can be mitigated: why not use real time temperament changes? Maybe such a system already exists (with a sample or model-based instrument and a computer program)? In a future version of Pianoteq, it could be possible to use pedals (or even unused keyboard notes) to switch tunings in real time as you play a piece (for example, to accommodate a modulation or a key change in the middle of said piece)!
I am quite sure I'm not the only one to have thought about this...

Last edited by aWc (20-02-2019 17:22)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

@_DJ_ - cheers! and thank you also - the year 1911 may have been a better topic for the Don MacLean song, occurs that this date signifies something apt inre 'the day the music died' (not to take anything from the song) - that PDF at truetemperament.com is the one I allude to above, must have kept a link but lost it. The other PDF is super too. Thanks so much!

@chasmanian - hope you're as happy as me with your results in tuning Pianoteq - I really enjoy the period between the late 1700s thru mid-late 1800s personally, where some of the 'sweetening' gets kind of more, I don't know, 'human' to me. I love that composers were working with and idealising aspects of some pretty 'pushed' settings but for me, a kinder truth lies between the betweens, maybe in a fractal sense it relates to the physical spiral shape of our inner ear. Like 3.333recurring.. it's something the most powerful supercomputers can spend decades calculating but.. 3.333 recurring is 'close'

@dazric - yeah that's such a fascinating thing, to ask those who have synaesthesia about! I bet some A/B playback of music in various tunings would turn up extremely interesting results (settings for the experiment would need to be pretty organised).

@Kramster1 - I loved the Ensoniq I had - they made some unsung but important advances. I liked their sampling in the early keyboards, as olde tech as it is today. They made sampling of instrument sounds with what may have been a first, in multi aspects (front and back end of signal - treating attack and tails as two separate blended items, which may form a lot of my inspirations in multi-tracking) - they were pretty hot engineers IMO.

@aWc - cool to read the excitement in your post It's a magical thing when you get to a point where you begin to grok something of the differences in the expressions boosted by some tunings. I'm still feeling like I've not gone far from basecamp and there's a long way to the summit yet. All so fascinating.

Echoing DJs sentiment, that its really cool to see more people remembering 'the music' used to have this whole extra universe of nuanced options attached. So great to have such ease in accelerating our learning with this software. But I also imagine a lot of piano tuners might not love the idea of all these old tunings (and new variants) showing up and creating all these new fussy taskmasters, when for a lot of them just doing an equal job is repeatable, quicker and customer expects it

This has been linked a lot from the forum even recently - but it's such an exceptionally good resource, I'm inclined to link again whenever it's relevant.. it's a zip file (unzip anywhere you like) of thousands of tuning variants from antiquity to current microtonal oddities and lovelies. (scroll to bottom of page for the link to the zip - I don't link directly as old-school 'Netizen courtesy to the Huygens Fokker website and owners). There's not a need to install the other software to use the library of files but this is a good website for learning how to edit scala files and their software may be ideal for that.

Just open the unzipped folder, and drag a file onto the Pianoteq interface to hear how it sounds - and also it's instructive to open Pianoteq's advanced tuning section to see how the tunings look and so easy to tweak things without needing other software unless you maybe want to save out your own tunings as scala files - although again.

You can open each tuning file (filename.scl) in a simple text editor, and save out your own tunings by altering them - or starting from scratch with a little observation of the form. To think you can just drag your new file into Pianoteq and Bob's your proverbial uncle. The authors of these files sometimes leave interesting notes in the text like:

! neidhardt1.scl
!
Neidhardt I temperament (1724)                                                 
12
!
94.13500
196.09000
296.09000
392.18000
4/3
592.18000
698.04500
796.09000
894.13500
16/9
1092.18000
2/1

Opening the 1790 J. Schantz Pianoteq recording preset (set to recently learned of 438 diapason - thank you again Philippe!), and playing good MIDI file performance of good ol' Moonlight Sonata 1 by J.S. Beethoven gives me goose bumps. He may have often played a Schantz tuned like this before the time he wrote Moonlight sonatas in 1801?, and to me, I get a real sense of this being a profound 'moment', to be able to hear what it might have been quite like to walk into a room where he sits playing either his or another's similar piano in that style.. you can hear how all the notes play so well here - but then, he may have used a later tuning also... but it works for me without more research for a better fit. (for reverb I like the IR file Berliner Hall Quad run in Pianoteq, with mix at minus5.8 and envelope at minus54.2 dB/s, no or extremely small pre-delay - maybe also relax damper settings a small click for the strings to ring a tad more - I like that on a lot of the era piano presets). Transportative to say the absolute least. More than any time before in my life, I can feel very close to what it would be like standing next to his piano as he plays. Thinking about that is head-spinning really. I love recordings of it by great pianists of course - but this is quite a different 'virtual' experience if you will.

I like to think that it's not so much about what tuning a musician is using 'today' but what tunings they used 'growing up' in their works which also communicate so much in a perhaps more overarching way, if not in a more obscure sense - it still is viable as a data point, myself being case in point. I know that no future music historians would know what hit 'em if they ever had to say "Ah yes, obviously used a 417 diapason and a variant of Hummel with.. etc." - they'd be incredibly uninformed and only partly correct - thus history is like an old magnetic tape storage device up to this point, only containing lossy data.. we all must guess, assume and hopefully assumptions make at least for good inspiration.

That above Neidhardt tuning seems nicely illustrative of the colouration mentioned, compared to equal tunings - it pleads, entirely lays out the emotional landscape from total abandonment of hope through to "ah, if only!", moments of joy etc.. it almost outright cries, downright comforts and also purely rages more IMO - the high single note sections make more sense to me with this tuning than equal, where it can sound 'remedial' rather than sublime

I'd love to load and compare others - suggestions would be cool!

[EDIT to add] BTW to nicely display how bizarre our ears can be, try loading in another recent earwig fav, Schubert Impromptu Opus 90 n.3 in G flat Maj.. and see how long you last before wanting to find the tuning Schubert was composing for You can't miss how different the effect of different tunings are - and lastly on that, it also clearly defines why equal tuning does have logical grip on the notion of 'one tuning for all music'.. although it kind of loses some deep things on retrospective collective works, the 'user' need not enter this labyrinthine world of tunings unless they, like some of us really love this stuff because it's really super interesting.

I've spent awkward amounts of time on sampling many of the tunings in the archive over years - but it's probably a lot simpler to try well known ones and work from there (for musicological survey) and then go wide for the occasional zinger. Many tunings are possibly very specific to a certain artists intent on other instruments than piano, incl. electronica.

I like Hummel and Hummel2 in that list and make some adjustments (having taken about 3 years on it only to engineer it back to a few small adjustments) - mainly because I feel with a per piano tweak, I can find a 'sense' that this is where I want to compose from/for. There's enough of the unequal and hints of the more 'modern' temperaments but for me, it works with so much music and on so many pianos (and diapason adjusted as well to really 'fit it'). But it's a whole universe of possibilities. I love the idea that my tweaking may end up being 'the' golden tuning or Holy Grael but hehe.. fools errand perhaps, although so far I'm kind of hooked on it - and it may sound wrong to others - I'm yet to give it a field test.

I think that if those music luminaries of past centuries had Pianoteq to work with, the accelerated pace on this subject may have meant that we may not have ended up with standard equal and MIDI as our contemporary 'control' across orchestras/devices/makers/etc. MIDI made it easy to mass produce modern instruments, and the public ear was ever trained to it for more than a hundred years really.

But if it was just as trivial to tune, test, re-tune, re-test etc.. maybe some other 'magic' consumer-grade tuning to win them all would have supplanted equal/MIDI. Not saying I hate equal, or MIDI (it's my musical birth place) but - man.. when you realise how much there is to understand and learn there is good argument for the musical establishment (loosely put) to rethink the subject, esp. where young students are concerned. I'm happy to learn this late-ish in life but I do wish I had Pianoteq back when I started - it makes learning/testing/enjoying and playing with these tunings so easy.

Perhaps the future of it really powerfully returning to musicians' conscious efforts begins roughly now with new tools like Pianoteq.. would be nice to come back to planet earth in a few hundred years time to see what the kids are up to.

Last edited by Qexl (20-02-2019 17:35)
Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

thank you very much Qexl!!!!   
I super appreciate your thoughts.
you are really brilliant and generous with your knowledge.   


would you please tell me which tunings in Pianoteq, that you
like the most of the 1700's - 1800's tunings?

Last edited by chasmanian (20-02-2019 17:47)

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Thank you chasmanian, you're welcome - there are plenty more knowledgeable and ys;rmyrf than I here.

Ah, truly love my Hummel variant most although it's still dependent on more work but for existing tunings I like in this order, after Neidhardt I

Neidhardt III
Kirnberger III
Hummel

In the jump from Beethoven's Moonlight Sonatas (including 2 and 3 btw) in Neidhardt I, over to Schubert's Impromptu, I like Neidhardt III (to me sounds like it's a progression which could have influenced later tunings as it gets closer to equal) or oddly a probably earlier one like Kirnberger III (which is in Pianoteq, to me feels more 'loving' with much music post 1800 like I imagine is what the piece intends but still rings 'rough' in bass during crescendos in a quite delightful way), but Hummel (fr. around 1840) near the top (Hummel 2 also). Beethoven and Schubert crossed paths, Schubert being younger and a fan of Mr. B. they share some common things like similar tunings.

Others like _DJ_ and David Pinnegar would have a wealth of ideas of fond matches of piano and tunings around those dates too.

Equal is perfectly enjoyable to me too esp. on a magnificent new grand piano, but for the arguably more-than just boutique experience of "what might it be like in the era", I like the variances. I'm not someone who can only enjoy one tuning but I can say, I often enjoy much more a profitable match of era, piano, diapason, tuning and Pianoteq's magic system incl. output seriously configurable options (like IR reverb handling and so on). In the past with MIDI and equal, I didn't have means to understand much about this topic and might have until a few decades ago been more dogmatic - not so much in terms of "only equal 440 is correct" but more "not rules you fools". I'm still closer to the latter but without losing great love for the artistry and engineering since before antiquity leading humans to all this as it exists.

Last edited by Qexl (20-02-2019 19:44)
Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

thank you very much Qexl.

I figured out how to get Hummel Scala files from the forum.

thank you to the man who uploaded them.

Pianoteq is such an awesome program.

thank you again for your very excellent reply Qexl!!!

Last edited by chasmanian (20-02-2019 22:52)

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

I've been tuning real pianos to the Pianoteq "Well Temperament" choice of Kellner Bach for over a decade. It's a good universal temperament that is a valid alternative to Equal Temperament, improves the sound of many pianos and gives key colour and many classical composers were writing for effects something like those that it gives. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqS_IjKo-d8 explains colour as in a spectrum of different sounds.

On 6th May at East Grinstead in England I'm organising a seminar on how tuning and temperament can improve performance and so an opportunity for musicians, technicians and piano manufacturers to rethink the subject. Pianoteq simulation will feature strongly although there will be various instruments in Kellner, Kirnberger III, Meantone and Equal temperament

Best wishes

David P

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Fab Chasmanian. I'd second David's mentioned Well Temperament (in Pianoteq's menu - historically developed mid 1600s) for these periods too. For just that Schubert piece alone though it's not my personal preference.

Fantastic video David, really in a nutshell demonstrates so much so clearly. Quite proud of you for your ongoing and endearing advocacy. Wishing success for the upcoming seminar.

@aWc - (missed your last post since looks like we posted a minute apart) I do like the idea of 'temperament' pedal a little like a pedal steel guitar where the pedal changes things dramatically. The tensions on a real piano frame might make even micro adjustments mechanically challenging but for electronic instruments not so problematic. It would be really the thing to be able to have pedal control for wolf intervals

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

thank you Qexl!!!!   

hey, speaking of pedal steel guitars,
in addition to pedals,
they also have knee levers.
so, imagine having pedals AND knee levers
on this new KTO (keyboard type object),
or PTO (piano type object),
that you are designing.   

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

David Pinnegar wrote:

many classical composers were writing for effects something like those that it gives

Except that Kellner's temperament, having been created c1971, is completely anachronistic to pretty much the entire cannon of "classical" music...  if one's interested in music of the classic era proper (ie early Haydn through early Beethoven), why not use a classic era temperament?  For instance, I acquired my real world fortepiano in '91 (a 1790s Koenicke copy) and for the 20+ years that I owned it (prior to having to part ways with it when I moved to asia in '15 for a spell) was tuning it [ie suffering the tedium of doing so ] on a near weekly basis using Vallotti-Young (having first been shown how by Bilson in my studies with him back in the day).  I've of course played around with a wide variety of temperaments, and on a fair number of different historic instruments, over the decades (and am now thanking the gods for Pianoteq's facility with this), and always have found that working with the temperaments that the composers themselves most likely did (as opposed to the visionary creation of latter day theorists, no matter how lovely) allows one to truly get at the "effects" they were actually employing...  (and, needless to say, this all of course applies to music of the Baroque and Romantic eras as well).

David, were you a friend or acquaintance of Kellner's?  Your championing of his temperament is admirable! 

cheers,
dj

Matthieu 7:6

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

I choose Kellner simply because Vallotti isn't strong enough spice for me . . . :-) and it has the authentic heritage of Kirnberger III which was published in 1779.

Werkmeister offered 8 perfect fifths instead of the 8 perfect thirds of meantone. It's likely that Bach did something with a modified Werkmeister. https://stereosociety.com/wp-content/up...screen.pdf is worth the read. Kirnberger would not have been able to reveal Bach's guarded secret but could have done something like it. If anything Bach would have moved in the direction of something milder rather than stronger and Kellner provides a milder version of Kirnberger and pianos tune beautifully with it.

It provides the expected range of the sort of key colours that were indicated by Schubart, with warm home keys, more strident remote keys and in particular the wide Ab C and Eb G and narrow F Ab and C Eb to make C minor and F minor the keys of sorrow and sadness. All the historic temperaments follow this sort of direction and I've played and researched old French organs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwoglLif3ps

There's no really one "right" temperament and many that work. It's a matter of what does best for which music and what sounds nice on the instrument. Unlike Pianoteq, acoustic instruments have to be tuned . . . and that's it. One doesn't have the luxury of chopping and changing. And Kellner has provided me with a temperament for my acoustic instruments that's of universal use and a valid alternative to equal tuning. It happens to sound good and make instruments sound good too.

6th comma meantone is a historically justified choice  - but I don't like it. Serkin 7th Comma is good too, but not strong enough for my tastebuds.

Because of the harmonic accordance which can be achieved with perfect fifths I like the Vallotti to Werkmeister family of unequal temperaments with 6 7 and 8 perfect fifths.

Best wishes

David P

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

aWc wrote:

...
Equal tuning has the same detuning of thirds in every key...

This is what I am currently struggling with. I have the Pianoteq Stage version, which only allows equal tuning and, for example, the C2 E4 interval does sound ugly! I am starting to learn to play the piano, playing simple pieces where often times just these two notes sound together, making me stumble over this dissonance. Coming from guitar, if I came across such a sound while playing, I would immediately stop and retune my instrument! It is a bit disappointing that Pianoteq ships with so many variations for each instrument, but all with equal tuning.
Seems i will have to upgrade to standard. The well temperament tuning sounds much better.

-Heinrich

Last edited by Heinrich (23-02-2019 23:24)

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Hi Heinrich,

standard guitar tuning pushes things around in certain ways - and like me, I'm sure we've grown attached to the tunings we've used on guitar - so I'd say, you're hearing a flatness between those notes which could be fixed with a little stretching, if not a different tuning scheme mentioned in this thread.

I wonder if it's also a tuning of a particular guitar too? My nice flamenco guitar sounds wholesomely as expected but a steel body slide guit is way more bluesy in the way discussed above, really pure mixed with more sour triad combos (it's meant to be tuned open - bridge design maybe inre shallow diff for the G - but in standard tuning it's really something too) and different electrics have their own peccadilloes - but all do share something of the above if tuned to standard guitar tuning.

For example - (sorry if none of this is plainly clear, it's something I'd need to simplify more).. but with 'home' major chords higher up the frets, I like to play and work with notes in the chord 'shapes' (close to the standard C maj chord shapes where poss.) as bar chords up the frets for maintaining "purity of tuning" if that's the goal (rather than resorting to other perhaps more convenient fingering variants like the standard E maj shape on, again, more convenient lower frets, and all this for effect of course not as a hard rule. It may be much easier to play the E shape up the frets, but also if variants jump from major to minor, there's going to be contained also that 'hint' of the G string prob no matter what fret, which kind of often influences that triad quite markedly) - but you can certainly push the tuning around on a guitar with a small jink here and there - esp. with open tunings and others. I love how a guitar rings with an open tuning (instead of standard, it's more like orchestral instruments, at least for the first 4 or 5 strings at 7 fret intervals, rather than 5 frets, say like a cello - then you decide what to do with the last string or two to create the zinger you desire, double up or plus 4 or even 3? or get a really tiny gaged last string and give it +5).

The tuning of the G on a guitar is my tuning issue from hell Esp. how on many guitars, nylon or steel strings, fingering the first fret on the G string can create quite a sharp note (the note most sensitive to pressure to string weight ratio to drag it down enough to touch fret - and so many new guitarists err on the side of pressing overly 'hard' until they develop a lighter touch (when first learning to bend notes with lateral action, I was fascinated by how much bend can be achieved on some guitars just with downward pressure - like hammering hard then relaxing the note some nice affects are attainable) - in electric guitars the Stratocaster stands out here). It's the most obvious clunker I learned young to retune on the fly and have had to continue to do since forever, as it's also the string which also loses tuning the most, being the largest unwound slippery sucker. Locking nut designs fix this largely, as a lower action goes a distance also. But still, with whammy bar use, even locked, that G can be cranky. Older strings stretched to hell and back give a sound I rather like, compared to perfectly new ones - maybe it's all the crazy inharmonicity involved plus random rust spots.

If you are sensitive to these aspects of course, like always I'm going to recommend upgrading Pianoteq - saving for it etc. It's definitely the most rewarding musical related expenditure I've ever made.

Talking of guitar strings, the idea of string age inre a piano is one element I rarely see discussed about in piano forums.

On a guitar, it's easier to afford a new set of strings and replace once they've 'gone off' beyond a point - but a piano! You want those strings to last a long time and etc.. it would be super interesting to hear from piano tuning elite around here about this.

Does string age enter deeply into the tuning and tonality like it most definitely does for a guitar? (a guitar can 'sour' because aged and rust spotted strings will simply lose overtones I suppose and eventually no matter how you try, it will sound out of tune somewhere with some chord shapes etc.).

So, lastly, with a piano - is there a good age for strings? 2 years with regular use? given no probs with damp/humidity/rust spotting - and would that be something possible for the Pianoteq model? (slider 'String age' - like condition slider but only limited to strings).

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Hi Qexl,

thank you for your elaborate reply. Not being able to set the string age is not by biggest problem right now
For the moment, i'd settle for a just a decent tuning. Obviously i will have to upgrade to PTQ standard sometime.

-Heinrich

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Age for piano strings is no problem. The only trouble happens in bad design where the strings are forced at sharp angles and tuning them repeatedly over time gives them metal fatigue, hardening them and eventually causing them to be brittle and break.

https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/jill-cross...d-bach.mp3 was recorded on the original strings of 1854. They were rusty, very rusty, and on the point of breaking. But it shows what old strings can do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC6TsAa6T4Q is a 1905 Broadwood and unlikely to have been restrung, it having been in my family from the 1940s or before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwbeh6xQJjM is in another genre where the temperament was totally irrelevant.

Best wishes

David P

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Thank you David!, so interesting to learn. Also such enjoyable listening, it's an absolute pleasure to hear these beautiful instruments.

Banner statement here would be that piano string age properties probably have much less influence on tunings and tonality than I suspected - at least for long periods of many decades or a century + and that's one heck of a sweet spot quite a thing.

There's something I love about the sounds of the strings in the top recording - they do remind me, inherently in a way, of aged guitar strings when the metal has less sharpness and more bing than ting perhaps and some waning sonority.

The lovely tones in the Chopin finale - esp. the high register.. haunting and as good as inspiration than any other aspect of the piano's sound.

Highlighting diff. in guitar strings for a last time - I used to enjoy a stand-out sweet spot, averaging a week or so between brand new and entirely bung guitar strings (probably being quite heavy-handed), where they seemed most musical without feeling too new and bright or too old and dull. Such a distraction really in hindsight but the constant restringing, tuning and re-tuning does in a way give me some sense of love for this.

By comparison the piano with these very old strings maintains a great charm for so long it's amazing really.

I suppose different metals are used (guit string makers advertise long life - but a gig or maybe two would be it for me - not counting a few which I liked having old strings on) as well as some guitarists' styles + #hours of usage might stress strings beyond bearing more so than others but compared to a maintained piano without being subjected to human touch, pronounced physical vibrato or stretching up by multiple intervals at every session could account somewhat for a long long life by comparison.

Seems you'd have to use the piano harp as a trampoline to emulate the kinds of abuse applied to a normal electric guitarist's effect perhaps

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

A well temperament could be transposed so as to give any key a desired color, so that key color is no longer tied to its pitch. Traditionally, temperaments favored the key of C, to the detriment of more distant keys, with the key of F# faring the worst. If the intervals in the F# diatonic scale were tuned as they are for the key of C, the former would become the favored key and C would become the distant key. It is not practical to retune an acoustic piano to accommodate any piece of music, but retuning becomes a trivial task for a digital synthesizer.

Last edited by Steven Brown (08-03-2019 06:58)

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Steven Brown wrote:

A well temperament could be transposed so as to give any key a desired color, so that key color is no longer tied to its pitch. Traditionally, temperaments favored the key of C, to the detriment of more distant keys, with the key of F# faring the worst. If the intervals in the F# diatonic scale were tuned as they are for the key of C, the former would become the favored key and C would become the distant key. It is not practical to retune an acoustic piano to accommodate any piece of music, but retuning becomes a trivial task for a digital synthesizer.

Funny that I started this thread and that my initial query got lost in the shuffle! Basically, I was suggesting that a modern software system like Pianoteq (or any digital-based instrument) could possibly allow for realtime, on-the-fly change of temperament. A pedal or other controller (even unused keys on the keyboard controller) could be activated by the performer to switch the scale that the temperament uses, in order to follow modulations and key changes of a particular piece or improvisation.

I know this idea goes against the "different key flavours" inherent to a fixed unequal temperament, but aren't those flavours mostly a consequence of the inability to retune on the fly with physical instruments? I think there could be great potential using current technology to achieve near-perfect intervals across multiple  scales used in a single performance.

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Funny that I started this thread and that my initial query got lost in the shuffle! Basically, I was suggesting that a modern software system like Pianoteq (or any digital-based instrument) could possibly allow for realtime, on-the-fly change of temperament. A pedal or other controller (even unused keys on the keyboard controller) could be activated by the performer to switch the scale that the temperament uses, in order to follow modulations and key changes of a particular piece or improvisation.

I know this idea goes against the "different key flavours" inherent to a fixed unequal temperament, but aren't those flavours mostly a consequence of the inability to retune on the fly with physical instruments? I think there could be great potential using current technology to achieve near-perfect intervals across multiple  scales used in a single performance.

Quite. Key color and pitch are two criteria which could be made independent of each other in the choice of key. The temperament could be named according to type and pitch, such as "Werckmeister Ab," one of twelve transpositions of that temperament. It would be convenient to be able to switch to a desired temperament on the fly. The choice of temperament could be made according to the music being composed or played; there is no compelling reason that the tones of a digital piano should be restricted to twelve fixed pitches. Even within the modern system of twelve pitch classes, violinists are encouraged to adjust intervals, to enhance expression, when they are not playing along with a piano.

http://violinmasterclass.com/en/masterc...intonation

Last edited by Steven Brown (08-03-2019 21:17)

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

I haven't been following the forum for a little while and it's appropriate to revisit this thread.

Tuning or rather temperement isn't about it sounding nice - it's about doing what it was meant to do and what composers were writing for.

Many advocate 6th comma meantone but I find it a little rough.

Essentially the family of tunings from Vallotti / Young, Stanhope, Kellner, Kirnberger III to Werkmeister III all do the expected things giving you carpet slipper comfort in the home keys to having to be prepared to take your sunhats and supply of mango juice to withstand the excitements of the chilli in the remote places.

Changing temperament on the fly isn't therefore a concept that has much musical meaning. Composers did change tonality on the fly - by changing key, and actually referred to as tonality in Italian.

Best wishes

David P

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

David Pinnegar wrote:

I haven't been following the forum for a little while and it's appropriate to revisit this thread.

Tuning or rather temperement isn't about it sounding nice - it's about doing what it was meant to do and what composers were writing for.

Many advocate 6th comma meantone but I find it a little rough.

Essentially the family of tunings from Vallotti / Young, Stanhope, Kellner, Kirnberger III to Werkmeister III all do the expected things giving you carpet slipper comfort in the home keys to having to be prepared to take your sunhats and supply of mango juice to withstand the excitements of the chilli in the remote places.

Changing temperament on the fly isn't therefore a concept that has much musical meaning. Composers did change tonality on the fly - by changing key, and actually referred to as tonality in Italian.

Best wishes



David P

With all due respect, I think that "sounding nice", or rather, in tune has always been a goal of musicians and technicians.. I think that the goal of having tuneful intervals, in any key, is a goal worth pursuing. We just happen to have the technical means to do it in this day and age.

Last edited by aWc (10-03-2019 06:35)
PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Actually achieving the "nicest" sounds was not the idea of the exploitation of what an unequal temperament could bring. It's a matter of turning corners, giving surprises, just like walking around in a creative garden. Gardens in which all flowers are arranged in straight lines, or all hedges enclose square shapes are boring, and the experience is of coming upon something fresh.

Perhaps you might hear that journey in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMHvl1yH1pw
with the comment by composer Sylvan Moir
"That is incredible. SO alive . It must be an unequal temperament?
  Maybe equal temperament is fitting for modern man - never quite at home anywhere, (the division of the octave into 12 equal parts is no home  - the epitome of homelesness) - the home comes from the octave, but also the fifth and the third in major and even minor chords . But then between keys too  the same thing can apply : you have a home then going outdoors becomes meaningful , and you can go a long way, and because it is a long way from home not some homeless-condition-everywhere ,- that really means something.
Then if you have a home going out can be a Surprise - listen to all the life breaking in on you from everywhere in this performance - whereas with equal temperament nothing is a surprise - you are homeless anyway ! And homelesness is essentially boring !   
              Trust modern man not to recognise this !
     What an amazing wonderful performance."

Couperin exploited meantone temperament and his Mass for Convents and Parishes uses sweetness of purity to contrast with pain of the Lord upon the cross.

Mozart and Haydn exploited the keys of C minor and F minor.

A famous harpsichordist, Schubart, detailed the different emotional effects of different keys and this is why both Bach and Chopin wrote series of pieces in each key exploring their flavour. Chopin used Bb Minor in the 2nd Sonata, in particular in the last movement to give a cold unsettling desolation of the wind blowing over the cold graves. The third movement particularly exploits the unequal temperament particularly with perfect fifths giving a certainty to the sound interrupted by another chord that's unsettling. The unequal temperament pits one against the other in contrast. Liszt uses B Major arpeggiated to give a feeling of skating on ice. These things are lost to equal temperament.

Mozart used F Minor for the fantasias for mechanical clock to accompany an art installation about the death of a brave general who had fought in the battle of Belgrade. When heard in Meantone both pieces go through the story of his life in sound, expressing the joy of the living, bravery and tradedy and sadness in mourning.

All these effects derive from pitting the still against the moving, the pure against the impure, the clean against the dirty. Unequal temperament is about musical exploitation beyond the dimensions of fast slow, loud soft.

It's for the same reason that 20th century film scores don't stick to saccharine sweetness in "nice" sounds but put deliberate discord into the soundscape. Were they to have had the tool of unequal temperament at their disposal they would have been able to work in more subtle ways.

Best wishes

David P

Last edited by David Pinnegar (10-03-2019 12:52)

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

The idea of a system for 'flexible' keyboard temperament has already been tried - way back in the 1500s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0akGtDPVRxk

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

A seriously fascinating instrument dazric. I love seeing deviations from the mean. Some amazing keyboards have been invented - and we're really all otherwise using quite a mainstream convention with our standard 88 keys - commerce and artistry and evolution - it's in the end just about allowing us monkeys the easiest ways to get out our collective 'works of Shakespeare' as we all tap away on whatever keys work for us. It could be like learning to touch type on a qwerty keyboard and having to relearn on a different one. I loved the change that was surprising - but the narrative may be lacking something.

I hate to think I'm missing something by degrees - but I think the below might be my best reasoning on that idea. Thinking / typing.

I don't think of transposing temperament as wrong entirely as a device - but the effect will be such that it renders classical music very differently, and therefore would likely not hold much currency in that wide sense, but may be very happily mused over and accepted in the realm of modern music where, although 'no rules' applies, those showing interesting progress in their works might attract interesting associates and fans etc.

For myself, the convention of transposing a temperament (by MIDI controller or a pedal/levers) would mostly be for intermittently pulling in some kind of sweetening or opposite wolf intervals for interesting effects where not expected - or mimicking other devices associated with steel guitars, or bending notes and chords etc. - contrivance and convenience and inre modern music I compose.

It would be fantastic to learn how to play a piece once, then click transpose the temperament down a few semitones - play the same thing with the same shapes on the same keys - saving the struggle of learning to transpose the notes.. that's the great shortcut I can see as the dangling carrot But.. alas..

Given how physics enters into the equation (like light emanating from the prism, at fixed frequencies) sound vibrates - and we hear notes and chords conspiring from triads which create "beats" harmony etc.. these physical waves can't be transposed.. just their intended effects if you kind of follow.

It's kind of interesting to consider all the current options we have to experiment though with Pianoteq - and what we can pick over from this.

Let's say we are using a well temperament set a different diapason in Pianoteq, so that the tuning is a semitone lower..

Result may be even less beating in home keys and strength of some wolf intervals might be lessened. (similar, relating to less inharmonicity when making string length longer)..

Alternatively, if the diapason is set differently and the same tuning scheme is now a semitone above A at 440..

Result may be more beating, a quicker dive into wolf territory and maye less sanctum afforded by the home keys (similar, relating to more inharmonicity by making strings shorter). This could go on until the dogs can't hear it and beyond - like infrared visibility it disappears to us - goes from us to infinity - taking with it, all it's meaning above a certain pitch. Tenor, Baritone - there's a physical as well as psychological and/or emotional difference to the effects of each, even if singing the same tune at the same pitch - if there's this whole octave of natural diff going on, one seems to cruise, the other may seem to have to really stretch - and the strains on the vocal chords (vibration) tells us, "there's stress here" to make that note happen, not comfort - it intones a part narrative in that way. That's why a musical director will cast accordingly - when possible to fill the choir (unless, you know, there's no choir in the production - bad joke) In any case, we wouldn't hear the difference between C maj and F min at diapason of 40440.

Our ears are capable of hearing the frequency range we hear only.. so in a way the whole idea of a common diapason (let's just say today's typical is A at 440kHz) is reasonable - but with each physical piano going back in history, people may have personal tastes, or the orchestras of certain places preferred or demanded certain standards etc. We have MIDI standard these days - for better and worse too in some ways (mostly humanistic reasoning attached for my way of thinking of that - but others won't mind or care for that).

That's the sweet spot or zone though, somewhere in the range of historical diapasons and today's 440. Most things will sound fine to us on a range (in Pianoteq try them all with different pianos - and also some "stretching" and "physical rebuild" - let your ears tell you what's happening). When we transpose quite a bit more than a just a semitone or three, definitely most people will understand unmistakably, that things will sound either too deep or too chip-monk.

So, although, if in theory, we can transpose in toto the whole set of chords and tones up or down as many semitones or micro-tonally as we want, the universe has something to say about this matter also damn you physics!

In the end, it might not be exactly like a slide rule thing.. because with each step up or down, the beatings change too. Therefore, it's almost as irrelevant (in a classical musical sense with historical devices bargained in) as just arbitrarily renaming all the notes

This might give reason to it:

Tuning 18th-century Well Temperament at the Piano, part 2 of 2


Incidentally, just watched one of David's videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JF3YzTG7lU) of Helen York playing that Bechstein (1885) and amazingly, lucked out by clicking through to that one above in the sidebar.. the tuner explains quite nicely how he tunes with temperament in mind.

I enjoy hearing his descriptors as he explains the beating in intervals. Nothing new I'm sure, to a lot of people who have tuned their own pianos - but the video makes for easy understanding.


Summing up - nothing against the idea, I love it (and the experiments dating back in history) - already do very personal things with odd tunings for modern music, piano and other inc. synthetic - but there's no physical way to make the same beatings happen in the same way (you're not my real dad, universe!) - so although, similar effects will occur, they will be different if tuning from A at 392 (I like that diapason for some older fortepianos).. but tune at 440 and it's a different 'feel' entirely, even though theoretical spacings are still "heard" because, obviously it's transposing somewhat - but it will be immutably different. Doesn't mean to translate as 'wrong' but maybe too different to carry literally the same meanings at least on a chord by chord basis.

If anything it's like the guitar analogy above, where I play the same chord shapes on higher frets - different triads used determine if the chord will sound sweeter or more like home.. (think typical student day one C chord on guitar, compared to student day on E chord shape).. you can use the C chord shaper (harder to do so) to play an E - or other chords all over the frets - and I can tune the guitar down semitones or up etc. - but..

it's physics which determines that the actual vibrations we hear are "what they say to us" - then we get to that notion of classical composers wallowing in the darkness of F min or allowing the light to shine in around C or E.. maybe that also makes understanding the notion of renaming notes as being the bit that would theoretically change by transposing temperament - thus only kind of spinning wheels, if trying to do it with affect to classical historical reasons.

Not to suggest "don't bother - there's no reason" - some modern composers are finding things which may have been impossible before recording equipment and reproducible sounds and sampling. Not all of it enjoyable to everyone, or arguably also without as deep a narrative as some might find from the world of classical music and beyond - but all valid, fun and fascinating.

If anyone would like to 'sanity check' any of that, I'd love to know if any is misguided. Fascinating stuff to me, all of it.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

David Pinnegar wrote:

Changing temperament on the fly isn't therefore a concept that has much musical meaning. Composers did change tonality on the fly - by changing key, and actually referred to as tonality in Italian.

What I meant by "on the fly" is the ability to retune the instrument to another temperament at the press of a button or the click of a mouse, a task that can take hours on an acoustic piano.

Non-equal temperaments give different keys their own distinctive colors, but the composer of music for piano has also to consider the pitch of the key in which to play the melody and to voice the harmony. It would give the composer more latitude to be able to chose any color for any key. That can be made possible by deriving from a well temperament a series of twelve temperaments based on the twelve diatonic scales. If the original temperament is designed, by the adjustment of intervals, to produce the most consonance in the key of C, and the most dissonance in the key of F#, a tritone higher, that same temperament could be adapted to produce the same consonance in the key of E, and the most dissonance in the key of Bb, a tritone higher, but at different pitches. The composer is then free to chose any key for the desired pitch and chord voicings, and any of the twelve derived temperaments for the desired key color. The idea might have been regarded as impractical when applied to acoustic pianos, but it can easily be applied to electronic pianos. A temperament such a Werckmeister could be programmed to be available as "Werckmeister C", "Werckmeister E," "Werckmeister Ab", etc. I am not suggesting this in order to play classical compositions in temperaments for which they were not intended. I am suggesting it as a way to give modern composers of music for piano more latitude.

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Steven Brown wrote:

What I meant by "on the fly" is the ability to retune the instrument to another temperament at the press of a button or the click of a mouse, a task that can take hours on an acoustic piano.

Did you know that you can change the key centre of any tuning using the + - buttons next to 'C3' in the Keyboard mapping section of the Advanced Tuning window? It's a feature that I discovered fairly recently (prompted by a query from aWc, if I remember correctly). And I very much agree with you regarding the exciting possibilities opened up by alternative tunings in the field of contemporary music. I often explore alternative tunings (not just the historical ones, but also Arabic scales and microtonal tunings) for improvisation.

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

In many of the unequal temperaments there's not necessarily a great change in transposition by a full tone but a large change by a semitone.

So even with the fixed unequal temperaments useful transposition was and is possible.

In Kellner / Kirnberger III family temperaments F# Ab B C# are the strained keys whilst C D (nearly) F G Bb are the purer keys and Eb and E and A are the transition keys quite near to the excitement of their Equal Temperament equivalents. So generally transposition is possible without a great deal of damage.

Best wishes

David P

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

dazric wrote:
Steven Brown wrote:

What I meant by "on the fly" is the ability to retune the instrument to another temperament at the press of a button or the click of a mouse, a task that can take hours on an acoustic piano.

Did you know that you can change the key centre of any tuning using the + - buttons next to 'C3' in the Keyboard mapping section of the Advanced Tuning window? It's a feature that I discovered fairly recently (prompted by a query from aWc, if I remember correctly). And I very much agree with you regarding the exciting possibilities opened up by alternative tunings in the field of contemporary music. I often explore alternative tunings (not just the historical ones, but also Arabic scales and microtonal tunings) for improvisation.

I am aware of that function (as per an earlier thread). I have not measured how long it takes for the change to occur from that menu....What I have in mind, is a real time or near real time command that you could send from your midi controller, without having to dive into a menu. As I have suggested a few times, it could  simply  use one of the piano pedals, or even could be assigned to some unused keys (at the very top or very bottom of the keyboard). I don't believe that this is possible in the current Pianoteq version. Maybe I should make it an official feature request   The idea is for the performer to quickly switch temperaments or key center from a temperament in the middle of a performance.

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Perhaps you will want to review this thread: https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=6068.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (26-03-2019 07:28)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

dazric wrote:

Did you know that you can change the key centre of any tuning using the + - buttons next to 'C3' in the Keyboard mapping section of the Advanced Tuning window? It's a feature that I discovered fairly recently (prompted by a query from aWc, if I remember correctly). And I very much agree with you regarding the exciting possibilities opened up by alternative tunings in the field of contemporary music. I often explore alternative tunings (not just the historical ones, but also Arabic scales and microtonal tunings) for improvisation.

I didn't know that. I guess the idea follows naturally from the possibility.

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

chasmanian wrote:

I would please, appreciate any replies to this too,
as I was wondering the same thing.
thank you for starting this thread aWc.

I played around with tunings a little in PT and also with
Soniccouture the Hammersmith (its a Steinway D).
and also read a little about tunings.
wow there is an incredible amount to learn about that!!!

Hello,
I am a violinist but I like a lot to try new temperaments with Pianoteq.

I propose you to check this temperament simply load this scala file to Pianoteq:


! Dimitrov.scl
!
Latchezar Dimitrov 2020 Moyen half tone equal temperament
12
!
100.27124
200.54248
300.81373
401.08497
501.35622
601.62746
701.94696
802.16995
902.44119
1002.7123
1102.9836
1203.2548

You can use Notepad to paste these data and to save the scala file *.scl

Have fun

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Working with violin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzDC5e1S7UQ
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7AoF3zvcaI
are recorded with both pianos tuned to Well Temperament - one an 1885 Bechstein and the other a Steinway C.

An interesting instrument in the Hammerwood Collection is a 1869 Broadwood Cottage grand - here recently restrung and taking advantage of recording two items before a retuning for deliberate effect
https://youtu.be/8t7l5OQKz2Y

Broadwoods were known to be concerned about evenness of tone and I believe that that shines through here. This instrument was tuned to Kirnberger III

https://youtu.be/nLlrPZjiSBg
gives more details about the instrument.

Best wishes

David P

Last edited by David Pinnegar (16-08-2020 17:53)

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Qexl wrote:

@_DJ_ - cheers! and thank you also - the year 1911 may have been a better topic for the Don MacLean song, occurs that this date signifies something apt inre 'the day the music died' (not to take anything from the song) - that PDF at truetemperament.com is the one I allude to above, must have kept a link but lost it. The other PDF is super too. Thanks so much!

@chasmanian - hope you're as happy as me with your results in tuning Pianoteq - I really enjoy the period between the late 1700s thru mid-late 1800s personally, where some of the 'sweetening' gets kind of more, I don't know, 'human' to me. I love that composers were working with and idealising aspects of some pretty 'pushed' settings but for me, a kinder truth lies between the betweens, maybe in a fractal sense it relates to the physical spiral shape of our inner ear. Like 3.333recurring.. it's something the most powerful supercomputers can spend decades calculating but.. 3.333 recurring is 'close'

@dazric - yeah that's such a fascinating thing, to ask those who have synaesthesia about! I bet some A/B playback of music in various tunings would turn up extremely interesting results (settings for the experiment would need to be pretty organised).

@Kramster1 - I loved the Ensoniq I had - they made some unsung but important advances. I liked their sampling in the early keyboards, as olde tech as it is today. They made sampling of instrument sounds with what may have been a first, in multi aspects (front and back end of signal - treating attack and tails as two separate blended items, which may form a lot of my inspirations in multi-tracking) - they were pretty hot engineers IMO.

@aWc - cool to read the excitement in your post It's a magical thing when you get to a point where you begin to grok something of the differences in the expressions boosted by some tunings. I'm still feeling like I've not gone far from basecamp and there's a long way to the summit yet. All so fascinating.

Echoing DJs sentiment, that its really cool to see more people remembering 'the music' used to have this whole extra universe of nuanced options attached. So great to have such ease in accelerating our learning with this software. But I also imagine a lot of piano tuners might not love the idea of all these old tunings (and new variants) showing up and creating all these new fussy taskmasters, when for a lot of them just doing an equal job is repeatable, quicker and customer expects it

This has been linked a lot from the forum even recently - but it's such an exceptionally good resource, I'm inclined to link again whenever it's relevant.. it's a zip file (unzip anywhere you like) of thousands of tuning variants from antiquity to current microtonal oddities and lovelies. (scroll to bottom of page for the link to the zip - I don't link directly as old-school 'Netizen courtesy to the Huygens Fokker website and owners). There's not a need to install the other software to use the library of files but this is a good website for learning how to edit scala files and their software may be ideal for that.

Just open the unzipped folder, and drag a file onto the Pianoteq interface to hear how it sounds - and also it's instructive to open Pianoteq's advanced tuning section to see how the tunings look and so easy to tweak things without needing other software unless you maybe want to save out your own tunings as scala files - although again.

You can open each tuning file (filename.scl) in a simple text editor, and save out your own tunings by altering them - or starting from scratch with a little observation of the form. To think you can just drag your new file into Pianoteq and Bob's your proverbial uncle. The authors of these files sometimes leave interesting notes in the text like:

! neidhardt1.scl
!
Neidhardt I temperament (1724)                                                 
12
!
94.13500
196.09000
296.09000
392.18000
4/3
592.18000
698.04500
796.09000
894.13500
16/9
1092.18000
2/1

Opening the 1790 J. Schantz Pianoteq recording preset (set to recently learned of 438 diapason - thank you again Philippe!), and playing good MIDI file performance of good ol' Moonlight Sonata 1 by J.S. Beethoven gives me goose bumps. He may have often played a Schantz tuned like this before the time he wrote Moonlight sonatas in 1801?, and to me, I get a real sense of this being a profound 'moment', to be able to hear what it might have been quite like to walk into a room where he sits playing either his or another's similar piano in that style.. you can hear how all the notes play so well here - but then, he may have used a later tuning also... but it works for me without more research for a better fit. (for reverb I like the IR file Berliner Hall Quad run in Pianoteq, with mix at minus5.8 and envelope at minus54.2 dB/s, no or extremely small pre-delay - maybe also relax damper settings a small click for the strings to ring a tad more - I like that on a lot of the era piano presets). Transportative to say the absolute least. More than any time before in my life, I can feel very close to what it would be like standing next to his piano as he plays. Thinking about that is head-spinning really. I love recordings of it by great pianists of course - but this is quite a different 'virtual' experience if you will.

I like to think that it's not so much about what tuning a musician is using 'today' but what tunings they used 'growing up' in their works which also communicate so much in a perhaps more overarching way, if not in a more obscure sense - it still is viable as a data point, myself being case in point. I know that no future music historians would know what hit 'em if they ever had to say "Ah yes, obviously used a 417 diapason and a variant of Hummel with.. etc." - they'd be incredibly uninformed and only partly correct - thus history is like an old magnetic tape storage device up to this point, only containing lossy data.. we all must guess, assume and hopefully assumptions make at least for good inspiration.

That above Neidhardt tuning seems nicely illustrative of the colouration mentioned, compared to equal tunings - it pleads, entirely lays out the emotional landscape from total abandonment of hope through to "ah, if only!", moments of joy etc.. it almost outright cries, downright comforts and also purely rages more IMO - the high single note sections make more sense to me with this tuning than equal, where it can sound 'remedial' rather than sublime

I'd love to load and compare others - suggestions would be cool!

[EDIT to add] BTW to nicely display how bizarre our ears can be, try loading in another recent earwig fav, Schubert Impromptu Opus 90 n.3 in G flat Maj.. and see how long you last before wanting to find the tuning Schubert was composing for You can't miss how different the effect of different tunings are - and lastly on that, it also clearly defines why equal tuning does have logical grip on the notion of 'one tuning for all music'.. although it kind of loses some deep things on retrospective collective works, the 'user' need not enter this labyrinthine world of tunings unless they, like some of us really love this stuff because it's really super interesting.

I've spent awkward amounts of time on sampling many of the tunings in the archive over years - but it's probably a lot simpler to try well known ones and work from there (for musicological survey) and then go wide for the occasional zinger. Many tunings are possibly very specific to a certain artists intent on other instruments than piano, incl. electronica.

I like Hummel and Hummel2 in that list and make some adjustments (having taken about 3 years on it only to engineer it back to a few small adjustments) - mainly because I feel with a per piano tweak, I can find a 'sense' that this is where I want to compose from/for. There's enough of the unequal and hints of the more 'modern' temperaments but for me, it works with so much music and on so many pianos (and diapason adjusted as well to really 'fit it'). But it's a whole universe of possibilities. I love the idea that my tweaking may end up being 'the' golden tuning or Holy Grael but hehe.. fools errand perhaps, although so far I'm kind of hooked on it - and it may sound wrong to others - I'm yet to give it a field test.

I think that if those music luminaries of past centuries had Pianoteq to work with, the accelerated pace on this subject may have meant that we may not have ended up with standard equal and MIDI as our contemporary 'control' across orchestras/devices/makers/etc. MIDI made it easy to mass produce modern instruments, and the public ear was ever trained to it for more than a hundred years really.

But if it was just as trivial to tune, test, re-tune, re-test etc.. maybe some other 'magic' consumer-grade tuning to win them all would have supplanted equal/MIDI. Not saying I hate equal, or MIDI (it's my musical birth place) but - man.. when you realise how much there is to understand and learn there is good argument for the musical establishment (loosely put) to rethink the subject, esp. where young students are concerned. I'm happy to learn this late-ish in life but I do wish I had Pianoteq back when I started - it makes learning/testing/enjoying and playing with these tunings so easy.

Perhaps the future of it really powerfully returning to musicians' conscious efforts begins roughly now with new tools like Pianoteq.. would be nice to come back to planet earth in a few hundred years time to see what the kids are up to.

Hello,

I have one ET to propose also:

! Dimitrov.scl
!
Latchezar Dimitrov 2020 Moyen half tone equal temperament
12
!
100.27124
200.54248
300.81373
401.08497
501.35622
601.62746
701.94696
802.16995
902.44119
1002.7123
1102.9836
1203.2548

This is an equal one, but more near to just position of all intervals(better than 12ET classic!

Cheers

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

Qexl wrote:

@_DJ_ - cheers! and thank you also - the year 1911 may have been a better topic for the Don MacLean song, occurs that this date signifies something apt inre 'the day the music died' (not to take anything from the song) - that PDF at truetemperament.com is the one I allude to above, must have kept a link but lost it. The other PDF is super too. Thanks so much!

@chasmanian - hope you're as happy as me with your results in tuning Pianoteq - I really enjoy the period between the late 1700s thru mid-late 1800s personally, where some of the 'sweetening' gets kind of more, I don't know, 'human' to me. I love that composers were working with and idealising aspects of some pretty 'pushed' settings but for me, a kinder truth lies between the betweens, maybe in a fractal sense it relates to the physical spiral shape of our inner ear. Like 3.333recurring.. it's something the most powerful supercomputers can spend decades calculating but.. 3.333 recurring is 'close'

@dazric - yeah that's such a fascinating thing, to ask those who have synaesthesia about! I bet some A/B playback of music in various tunings would turn up extremely interesting results (settings for the experiment would need to be pretty organised).

@Kramster1 - I loved the Ensoniq I had - they made some unsung but important advances. I liked their sampling in the early keyboards, as olde tech as it is today. They made sampling of instrument sounds with what may have been a first, in multi aspects (front and back end of signal - treating attack and tails as two separate blended items, which may form a lot of my inspirations in multi-tracking) - they were pretty hot engineers IMO.

@aWc - cool to read the excitement in your post It's a magical thing when you get to a point where you begin to grok something of the differences in the expressions boosted by some tunings. I'm still feeling like I've not gone far from basecamp and there's a long way to the summit yet. All so fascinating.

Echoing DJs sentiment, that its really cool to see more people remembering 'the music' used to have this whole extra universe of nuanced options attached. So great to have such ease in accelerating our learning with this software. But I also imagine a lot of piano tuners might not love the idea of all these old tunings (and new variants) showing up and creating all these new fussy taskmasters, when for a lot of them just doing an equal job is repeatable, quicker and customer expects it

This has been linked a lot from the forum even recently - but it's such an exceptionally good resource, I'm inclined to link again whenever it's relevant.. it's a zip file (unzip anywhere you like) of thousands of tuning variants from antiquity to current microtonal oddities and lovelies. (scroll to bottom of page for the link to the zip - I don't link directly as old-school 'Netizen courtesy to the Huygens Fokker website and owners). There's not a need to install the other software to use the library of files but this is a good website for learning how to edit scala files and their software may be ideal for that.

Just open the unzipped folder, and drag a file onto the Pianoteq interface to hear how it sounds - and also it's instructive to open Pianoteq's advanced tuning section to see how the tunings look and so easy to tweak things without needing other software unless you maybe want to save out your own tunings as scala files - although again.

You can open each tuning file (filename.scl) in a simple text editor, and save out your own tunings by altering them - or starting from scratch with a little observation of the form. To think you can just drag your new file into Pianoteq and Bob's your proverbial uncle. The authors of these files sometimes leave interesting notes in the text like:

! neidhardt1.scl
!
Neidhardt I temperament (1724)                                                 
12
!
94.13500
196.09000
296.09000
392.18000
4/3
592.18000
698.04500
796.09000
894.13500
16/9
1092.18000
2/1

Opening the 1790 J. Schantz Pianoteq recording preset (set to recently learned of 438 diapason - thank you again Philippe!), and playing good MIDI file performance of good ol' Moonlight Sonata 1 by J.S. Beethoven gives me goose bumps. He may have often played a Schantz tuned like this before the time he wrote Moonlight sonatas in 1801?, and to me, I get a real sense of this being a profound 'moment', to be able to hear what it might have been quite like to walk into a room where he sits playing either his or another's similar piano in that style.. you can hear how all the notes play so well here - but then, he may have used a later tuning also... but it works for me without more research for a better fit. (for reverb I like the IR file Berliner Hall Quad run in Pianoteq, with mix at minus5.8 and envelope at minus54.2 dB/s, no or extremely small pre-delay - maybe also relax damper settings a small click for the strings to ring a tad more - I like that on a lot of the era piano presets). Transportative to say the absolute least. More than any time before in my life, I can feel very close to what it would be like standing next to his piano as he plays. Thinking about that is head-spinning really. I love recordings of it by great pianists of course - but this is quite a different 'virtual' experience if you will.

I like to think that it's not so much about what tuning a musician is using 'today' but what tunings they used 'growing up' in their works which also communicate so much in a perhaps more overarching way, if not in a more obscure sense - it still is viable as a data point, myself being case in point. I know that no future music historians would know what hit 'em if they ever had to say "Ah yes, obviously used a 417 diapason and a variant of Hummel with.. etc." - they'd be incredibly uninformed and only partly correct - thus history is like an old magnetic tape storage device up to this point, only containing lossy data.. we all must guess, assume and hopefully assumptions make at least for good inspiration.

That above Neidhardt tuning seems nicely illustrative of the colouration mentioned, compared to equal tunings - it pleads, entirely lays out the emotional landscape from total abandonment of hope through to "ah, if only!", moments of joy etc.. it almost outright cries, downright comforts and also purely rages more IMO - the high single note sections make more sense to me with this tuning than equal, where it can sound 'remedial' rather than sublime

I'd love to load and compare others - suggestions would be cool!

[EDIT to add] BTW to nicely display how bizarre our ears can be, try loading in another recent earwig fav, Schubert Impromptu Opus 90 n.3 in G flat Maj.. and see how long you last before wanting to find the tuning Schubert was composing for You can't miss how different the effect of different tunings are - and lastly on that, it also clearly defines why equal tuning does have logical grip on the notion of 'one tuning for all music'.. although it kind of loses some deep things on retrospective collective works, the 'user' need not enter this labyrinthine world of tunings unless they, like some of us really love this stuff because it's really super interesting.

I've spent awkward amounts of time on sampling many of the tunings in the archive over years - but it's probably a lot simpler to try well known ones and work from there (for musicological survey) and then go wide for the occasional zinger. Many tunings are possibly very specific to a certain artists intent on other instruments than piano, incl. electronica.

I like Hummel and Hummel2 in that list and make some adjustments (having taken about 3 years on it only to engineer it back to a few small adjustments) - mainly because I feel with a per piano tweak, I can find a 'sense' that this is where I want to compose from/for. There's enough of the unequal and hints of the more 'modern' temperaments but for me, it works with so much music and on so many pianos (and diapason adjusted as well to really 'fit it'). But it's a whole universe of possibilities. I love the idea that my tweaking may end up being 'the' golden tuning or Holy Grael but hehe.. fools errand perhaps, although so far I'm kind of hooked on it - and it may sound wrong to others - I'm yet to give it a field test.

I think that if those music luminaries of past centuries had Pianoteq to work with, the accelerated pace on this subject may have meant that we may not have ended up with standard equal and MIDI as our contemporary 'control' across orchestras/devices/makers/etc. MIDI made it easy to mass produce modern instruments, and the public ear was ever trained to it for more than a hundred years really.

But if it was just as trivial to tune, test, re-tune, re-test etc.. maybe some other 'magic' consumer-grade tuning to win them all would have supplanted equal/MIDI. Not saying I hate equal, or MIDI (it's my musical birth place) but - man.. when you realise how much there is to understand and learn there is good argument for the musical establishment (loosely put) to rethink the subject, esp. where young students are concerned. I'm happy to learn this late-ish in life but I do wish I had Pianoteq back when I started - it makes learning/testing/enjoying and playing with these tunings so easy.

Perhaps the future of it really powerfully returning to musicians' conscious efforts begins roughly now with new tools like Pianoteq.. would be nice to come back to planet earth in a few hundred years time to see what the kids are up to.

Hello,

I have one ET to propose also:

! Dimitrov.scl
!
Latchezar Dimitrov 2020 Moyen half tone equal temperament
12
!
100.27124
200.54248
300.81373
401.08497
501.35622
601.62746
701.94696
802.16995
902.44119
1002.7123
1102.9836
1203.2548

This is an equal one, but more near to just position of all intervals(better than 12ET classic!

Cheers

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

To @David Pinegar,

thanks for sharing - good to see the concert as well as seeing the behind-scenes with the Broadwood. I do love how your pianos sound (the restrung Broadwood is a treat) and hats off to each of the artists for their enriching performances and to you for continued enthusiastic hosting and enlightening videos.


To @Kajok, fantastic, thank you!

The Dimitrov tuning you supplied is exceptional to me. Very much appreciate it. Sings in ways I love and has more clear bell in certain ways I also love

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

@Kajok: it may be worth contacting the author of Scala (Manuel Op de Coul, coul@huygens-fokker.org ) to see if the Dimitrov tuning can be included in a future update of the Scala Archive. Just a thought!

Re: alternate tunings and tonality

dazric wrote:

@Kajok: it may be worth contacting the author of Scala (Manuel Op de Coul, coul@huygens-fokker.org ) to see if the Dimitrov tuning can be included in a future update of the Scala Archive. Just a thought!


OK, thank you! It's done.