Topic by jon123

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Topic: Confused about velocity curves

I have been playing around with the Pianoteq demo for the last week and have made some observations about the velocity curves which confuses me:

1. Changing the velocity curve affects the timbre.
The default "normal" velocity curve (the linear curve) appears to result in a brighter sound than the faster velocity curve presets. Additionally, I have noticed a greater difference between the timbre of each instrument when using a faster velocity curve. When using the normal preset, the instruments sound more similar to each other. Does the velocity curve really affect the timbre or is it my playing technique?

2. Some instrument presets have custom velocity curves.
For example, Steinway D presets Blues, Vintage, Trio, Duo, Cabaret, Honky Tonk, Super Tonk, and Out of Tune have custom presets while all of the other presets use the normal linear curve as default. Since Pianoteq encourages you to calibrate the velocity curve according to your controller, would that only apply to the presets that have the normal linear curve by default? Should different instruments in Pianoteq have different curves?

3. Controllers with on-board curves.
My controller does not have on-board velocity curves like the VPC1. My controller is very old (around 30 years!) and I really would like to purchase a new controller. If I were to use the VPC1 with its built-in velocity curve for Pianoteq, what would I select for the velocity curve within Pianoteq? Should the curve just be flat? If I changed the on-board velocity curve of the VPC1, would that not affect the timbre since I am not chagning the velocity curve within Pianoteq?

Reply by bm

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

jon123 wrote:

I have been playing around with the Pianoteq demo for the last week and have made some observations about the velocity curves which confuses me:

1. Changing the velocity curve affects the timbre.
The default "normal" velocity curve (the linear curve) appears to result in a brighter sound than the faster velocity curve presets. Additionally, I have noticed a greater difference between the timbre of each instrument when using a faster velocity curve. When using the normal preset, the instruments sound more similar to each other. Does the velocity curve really affect the timbre or is it my playing technique?

Point 1:
Yes velocity curve affect the timbre which is normal. The louder we play, the brighter the sound is with an acoustic piano. In addition, the way we play also affects brilliance. (As an amateur pianist, I have kept the bad habit of a game too much percussive which aggravates this impression). Pianoteq has a number of settings to adjust this velocity brightness from its standard version (eg specific harness hardness tuning for piano / mezzo / forte & dynamics), and even more precisely in its pro version. (note by note in this latest version). However, the Pianoteq sound generator engine (which has improved considerably) still needs to progress in the fidelity of the relationship between velocity and brightness. Personally, I find by default at some velocities the sound too dull and others the sound too bright, which is difficult to adjust faithfully even with the pro version. Naturally, as with any acoustic instrument, it is ultimately up to the pianist to adapt, if he has the technique for that and (which helps a little) a keyboard enough faithful for that.

Bruno

Last edited by bm (27-02-2019 08:42)

Reply by dklein

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

Jon,

I have had exactly the same issues with velocity curves as you have had.  Originally, in order to not have to calibrate my setup with the velocity curve and then 'lock it' (as a parameter) so that I could experience the curves that people build into their presets for creative reasons, I worked on improving my sounds with speaker selection, speaker position, and preamp volume settings (my main speakers are out of direct-line 'earshot' and pointed to the ceiling, my small satellites for high treble are pointed at me but dialed-back, and I added a 8" subwoofer under the keyboard to the left of my feet).  With these hardware and amplifier volume settings made, then the straight velocity curve in Pianoteq sounded pretty realistic, but not perfect.

More recently, Niclas at Modartt pointed me towards a piece of software called 'VelPro' ( https://springbeats.com/velpro/ ).  This simple software is great, as it allows me to set a precise calibration curve that matches my keyboard (an acoustic piano with a QRS PNOscan II laser-reading MIDI strip).  Additionally, it is separate from Pianoteq, so that I get consistent velocity calibration that's specific to my hardware, so it is applied across other software as well (such as by Native Instruments, etc.).

I recommend that you, as well as anyone else who finds themselves tweaking the velocity curve to suit their setup, give VelPro a try.

- David

- David

Reply by dazric

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

Wow, I didn't know such software as VelPro existed, I will definitely take a look at that. Thanks, David, for posting the link. I'm not surprised that many people find the Velocity Curve confusing, it's something I've been wrestling with as well. Pianoteq's calibration wizard is OK, but it looks as if VelPro offers more precision.
One question about VelPro: once you have set it up, do you then set Pianoteq's Velocity Curve back to the default 'normal keyboard'?

Reply by dklein

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

That's what I did.  I leave the parameter locks unlocked for the velocity curve, and thus it stays as a straight line from 0,0 to 127,127 most of the time, unless a preset that I choose comes with some included velocity curve for creative reasons.

- David

Reply by dazric

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

Just did a quick test of VelPro with an Acorn Masterkey (unweighted) keyboard, pulling down the nodes to make it harder to play really loud. I applied this setting on top of the VC I have in Pianoteq for my Roland FP30 - and it works! So it can be used as a way of fine-tuning or adapting an existing curve as well as creating a new one. Really pleased about this, because I can now use the Masterkey for quick testing of Pianoteq presets at my desktop.

Last edited by dazric (28-02-2019 12:45)

Reply by dklein

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

Parfait!  Spread the word.  It's a good universal answer.

- David

Reply by bm

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

I bought this product yesterday, it works well with my Casio GP500 keyboard. It is just a pity that this product does not have an explicit online help and that it can not (unless I am mistaken) allow to save several settings (only one is memorized) This product allows you to make settings note by note + default behavior also adjustable for notes not set, everything is well saved, but there is only one preset and apparently no config file that can be saved explicitly to keep different presets (for different pianoteq instruments).

Bruno

Reply by dklein

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

I have written to the developer about having multiple saved curves, not for multiple Pianoteq instruments, but for multiple input devices (such as that I use one Surface Tablet to run Pianoteq, but have my piano as input at home, and use a CME X-Key lightweight keyboard if I am using Pianoteq on a trip).  The developer wrote back that he didn't know what the demand was for saving multiple curves, so I would suggest that you write to them as well to reinforce the suggestion of this option.

- David

Reply by dazric

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

I think a lot of Pianoteq (and other software) users will be disappointed that VelPro doesn't save multiple curves. Another slight disappointment is that you don't get numeric values for the points that you create (like you do in Pianoteq). Apart from those shortcomings, it's very good!

Reply by Torero

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

The ability to switch between the velocity curves, for comparison purposes or even for different styles of play/persons playing/pieces/composers could be useful as well.

Thanks!

Reply by bm

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Re: Confused about velocity curves

dklein wrote:

I have written to the developer about having multiple saved curves, not for multiple Pianoteq instruments, but for multiple input devices (such as that I use one Surface Tablet to run Pianoteq, but have my piano as input at home, and use a CME X-Key lightweight keyboard if I am using Pianoteq on a trip).  The developer wrote back that he didn't know what the demand was for saving multiple curves, so I would suggest that you write to them as well to reinforce the suggestion of this option.

I wrote today to springbeats.com support to express this need, stating that it was also shared by other Pianoteq's users.
= = =
I received almost immediately a response from the publisher who wishes to achieve this change very soon.
In the meantime, with the current version, it would be possible to manually replace the configuration of a keyboard that is present in the file: C:\ Users\<YOUR_USER_WINDOWS>\ AppData\ Roaming\com.springbeats.VelPro\data.xml
depending on the piano model used.
NB: "AppData" is a hidden folder, so make sure that you display hidden files and folders in your browser.

Bruno

Last edited by bm (01-03-2019 23:25)