Topic by _DJ_

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Topic: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

@devs: question per the topic subject.  The 'factory' presets are at 440, 392, & 415 without listing what the original diapason of the physical instrument at Schloss Kremsegg is, and none of those seem to me to be very likely for a c1812 instrument (though I'll be happy to be informed otherwise)...?  I could see perhaps 438 (Wienerton c1800-20), but if I had to would guess that it's more likely to have been originally set down around 430 when it first came out of the workshop?  (Though what it was originally pitched at of course doesn't necessarily mean it was kept there through the instrument's now 207 year life; the provenance of its pitch would be another area of interest if known...) but this is of course just conjecture and i'd really love to know (for purposes of an fxp i'm working on with it as well as out of musicological interest) the reality of what it was set at when the instrument was sampled for modelling. 

many thanks! & cheers,
dj

Matthieu 7:6

Reply by David Pinnegar

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

I'd think 415 to 425 would be likely. Mozart's instrument was at 425 apparently

Best wishes

David P

Reply by _DJ_

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

David Pinnegar wrote:

I'd think 415 to 425 would be likely. Mozart's instrument was at 425 apparently


well actually, c1780 it's 421.6 for Mozart (since we know the pitch of Stein's tuning fork), which is of course well before the  1812 Schöffstoss...

but pitch, while subject to considerable regional flux, was generally rising during this epoch.  (see here ==> http://www.mozartpiano.com/articles/pitch.php for a nice overview of some of this.)  c1820 in London we're at 430 for the Philharmonic, and by 1834, 436.5 was the standard for the Vienna opera (leaving aside Wienerton of 438 around this same time)...

all of which is not to say that the 1812 Schöffstoss couldn't have been pitched at any of our 'factory' given presets, but it would be nice to know concretely one way or the other... unless there's some reason why we shouldn't know this?  surely the pitch of the physical instrument isn't proprietary information??  Philippe et al, I'm sure you're plenty busy with other things, but a little word of clarification would certainly be much appreciated on the "community support" front...

cheers,
dj

Matthieu 7:6

Reply by Qexl

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

Hey DJ, I'd say it's the weekend, Q was asked late - but if it's time sensitive, I'd use the contact support option.

That info might be available via contacting someone at the physical piano owner's website's contact page (I think they have it).

It'd be something I'll be interested to know also.

As a user forum user, I gave some time to searching for that info without success, sorry DJ.

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Reply by _DJ_

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

Qexl wrote:

Hey DJ, I'd say it's the weekend, Q was asked late - but if it's time sensitive, I'd use the contact support option.

That info might be available via contacting someone at the physical piano owner's website's contact page (I think they have it).

It'd be something I'll be interested to know also.

As a user forum user, I gave some time to searching for that info without success, sorry DJ.


Thanks, Qexl.

I've taken your suggestion and written to the folks at Schloss Kremsegg... well see what they have to say & I'll certainly report back anything that I might hear from them.

But of course, in the mean time, it would be great to have a quick word from the devs here about it...

edit & PS: 'just did a quick survey of the other historic instruments in the KIViR collection and theyr'e all (indiscriminately?) provided with "factory" presets of 440, 415, & 392, with none of them listing the original diapason of the instrument... a curious state-of-affairs it seems to me... why just provide generic settings and not indicate the original diapason for these instruments?

Last edited by _DJ_ (17-02-2019 11:36)
Matthieu 7:6

Reply by _DJ_

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

David Pinnegar wrote:

I'd think 415 to 425 would be likely. Mozart's instrument was at 425 apparently


further, out of musicological/historic interest, here's a little more food-for-thought conjecture concerning the instrument's original diapason...

the œml's entry for Stimmton ('diapason') gives us this:

Der instrumentale St., nun Kammerton genannt, dürfte bei ungefähr a¹ = 430 Hz gelegen sein und stieg in der 2. Hälfte des 18. Jh.s in Österreich bis ca. 435 Hz für a¹ an. 1789 schrieb der Wiener Holzblasinstrumentenmacher M. Lempp von einem sog. Wienerton, der bei a¹ = 438 Hz lag, der Kammerton ungefähr bei a¹ = 430–433 Hz. ... Schneller als anderswo erreichte man in Wien bereits in den ersten Jahrzehnten des 19. Jh.s eine Standardstimmung von a¹ = 440 Hz und fallweise auch etwas höher. Die Stimmung vieler Orgeln, die ursprünglich hoch (a¹ = ca. 450–470 Hz) bzw. sehr hoch (bis z. T. über 490 Hz für a¹) standen, wurden auf den sich durchsetzenden Kammerton gesenkt. 1834 werden für Wien fünf verschiedene St.e erwähnt: 434, 437, 439, 441 und 445 Hz für a¹.

[https://www.musiklexikon.ac.at/ml/musik_S/Stimmton.xml]

("The instrumental diapason, now called Kammerton, is said to be located at about a¹ = 430 Hz, and increased in the second half of the 18th century in Austria to about 435 Hz for a¹.  In 1789 the Viennese woodwind instrument maker M. Lempp wrote a so-called Wienerton, which was at a¹ = 438 Hz, the chamber pitch approximately at a¹ = 430-433 Hz. ... In Vienna as early as the first decades of the 19th century, a standard pitch of a¹ = 440 Hz was reached faster than elsewhere, and occasionally slightly higher.  The pitch of many organs, which were originally high (a¹ = about 450-470 Hz) or very high (up to sometimes over 490 Hz for a¹), were lowered to the prevailing chamber sound.  In 1834 five different pitches were mentioned for Vienna: 434, 437, 439, 441 and 445 Hz for a¹.")

so, I'm still guessing 430 was the approximate original diapason...

anyone feeling in a Ladbrokes sort of mood & want to lay odds on a spread of likely pitches for the actual correct answer?? 

cheers,
dj

Matthieu 7:6

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

I think that the "sampling" pitch and the "original" pitch (out of workshop) might indeed be very different... If the instrument has been restored (to what degree?), the pitch might be high, otherwise, it might be very, very low indeed... I've recorded a well restored Graf at 428 Hz, while I just recorded Liszt own Ibach in Bayreuth and it was approximately at 438 Hz... But anyway, the "sampling" pitch might be very interesting to know. Still no answer?

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Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

_DJ_ wrote:
David Pinnegar wrote:

I'd think 415 to 425 would be likely. Mozart's instrument was at 425 apparently


well actually, c1780 it's 421.6 for Mozart (since we know the pitch of Stein's tuning fork), which is of course well before the  1812 Schöffstoss...

but pitch, while subject to considerable regional flux, was generally rising during this epoch.  (see here ==> http://www.mozartpiano.com/articles/pitch.php for a nice overview of some of this.)  c1820 in London we're at 430 for the Philharmonic, and by 1834, 436.5 was the standard for the Vienna opera (leaving aside Wienerton of 438 around this same time)...

all of which is not to say that the 1812 Schöffstoss couldn't have been pitched at any of our 'factory' given presets, but it would be nice to know concretely one way or the other... unless there's some reason why we shouldn't know this?  surely the pitch of the physical instrument isn't proprietary information??  Philippe et al, I'm sure you're plenty busy with other things, but a little word of clarification would certainly be much appreciated on the "community support" front...

cheers,
dj

Sorry for the late reply. When one seeks information about diapason in the past centuries, one can only get confused by how much it has varied not only during time, but also from one place to another, from 415 Hz up to more than 450 Hz. I heard once an amusing story about churches with small budget using a high diapason to spare on the pipe length [reference needed]. Even today, when you purchase a tuning fork by a piano tuner tools supplier, you can choose diapason from at least 430 Hz to 445 Hz, see for example
https://www.pianoteile.com/unsecure/pro...30-080-000

Now regarding the Kremsegg collection, we made the very basic and lazy choice to chose the diapason to which each instrument was tuned at the time we recorded them. The practical reason being to make the comparison easier between the original instrument and the virtual copy. Of course we could have changed it afterwards, as we did it for the KIViR collection, but for some reason we left it as is, thinking that it was so easy for the user to change the diapason to his taste that it should not be an issue anyway.

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Reply by _DJ_

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

Many thanks for the response, Philippe!

Concerning the Kremsegg collection, far from being a "lazy" or "basic" choice, I think the inclusion of the original diapason of the instrument when recorded is of tremendous value, especially since (as you articulate) it's easy enough for the user to change to taste.

But so my question is, why not have done the same (include the original diapason when recorded) for the KIViR instruments?

and my original question still stands:  What was the diapason of the 1812 Schöffstoss when recorded??  (as well as, I suppose, those of the other instruments in the KIViR collection???)

'sorry to be a nag about this, but it would be really great to better understand what the physical instrument sounds like before playing around with other parameters. 

Many thanks again!
dj

Matthieu 7:6

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

_DJ_ wrote:

Many thanks for the response, Philippe!

Concerning the Kremsegg collection, far from being a "lazy" or "basic" choice, I think the inclusion of the original diapason of the instrument when recorded is of tremendous value, especially since (as you articulate) it's easy enough for the user to change to taste.

But so my question is, why not have done the same (include the original diapason when recorded) for the KIViR instruments?

and my original question still stands:  What was the diapason of the 1812 Schöffstoss when recorded??  (as well as, I suppose, those of the other instruments in the KIViR collection???)

'sorry to be a nag about this, but it would be really great to better understand what the physical instrument sounds like before playing around with other parameters. 

Many thanks again!
dj

_DJ_, here are the diapasons at which the KIViR grand pianos/pianoforte were tuned when we recorded them:
Erard: 440
Graf: 438
Schantz: 438
Schmidt: 416
Schöffstoss: 442
Walter: 415
Pleyel: 440

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

_DJ_, here are the diapasons at which the KIViR grand pianos/pianoforte were tuned when we recorded them:
Erard: 440
Graf: 438
Schantz: 438
Schmidt: 416
Schöffstoss: 442
Walter: 415
Pleyel: 440

brilliant—thank you so much, Philippe! that's tremendously helpful (and certainly very interesting concerning the Schöffstoss in particular).

You and the whole Modartt team are simply the best! 

cheers,
dj

Matthieu 7:6

Reply by Qexl

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

Excellent - thank you Philippe and DJ for the great question - this will be really interesting to apply.
Cheers!

[EDIT to add] The Schöffstoss diapason being 442 is a surprise. I have only been lowering it in the past

[Further EDIT to add] Tried the Schöffstoss as 442 - and it's marvelous!

Last edited by Qexl (20-02-2019 05:05)
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Reply by _DJ_

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

I heard back from the folks at Schloss Kremsegg and they had this to say about their 1810[!?] Schöffstoss:

Sehr geehrter [redacted],

danke für Ihre Anfrage. Meine Kollegin hat Ihre Nachricht an mich weitergeleitet.

Folgende Stimmungen kann ich Ihnen zu unserem Schöffstoss um 1810 mitteilen:

Bei Übernahme des Flügels ins Museum  2000/2001: 430 Hz

Juli 2015: 437 Hz

Juli 2017: 430 Hz

Aktuell: 437 Hz

Momentan wird der Flügel nicht gestimmt, da das Museum geschlossen wurde.

Auskunft zur ursprünglichen Stimmung kann ich Ihnen leider nicht geben.

Ich hoffe, dass für Sie diese Auskunft interessant ist.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Sandra Föger

to which a few things come to mind:

1) the date discrepancy... either the museum has two Schöffstoss instruments in their collection (certainly a possibilty), or someone has gotten their dates mixed around...?

2) 430/437 is just as I expected it might be... but so perhaps this diapason info against Philippe's reporting of 442 strengthens the case for there being two instruments?  unless the diapason was brought up to 442 expressly for the sampling session (though this seems unlikely to me)...? @Philippe: what year was the KIViR Schöffstoss sampled and, before I go bugging Fr. Föger further, can you shed any more light on all this?

3) though they have no infos about the provenance of the instrument's diapason, it's perhaps not entirely unlikely that 430 is its original pitch...?  Luc's spot on of course about restoration having changed things though... @Luc: is the original diapason of the Graf and Liszt's Ibach you mentioned known?  In your experience, what's the normal sort of range of variance from an instrument's original pitch to that after it's been restored (as much as there might even be such a thing as a "normal range")?

and here I was all ready to cry "eureka—case solved!"  but the plot seems to have thickened...

cheers,
dj

Matthieu 7:6

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

_DJ_ wrote:

I heard back from the folks at Schloss Kremsegg and they had this to say about their 1810[!?] Schöffstoss:

to which a few things come to mind:

1) the date discrepancy... either the museum has two Schöffstoss instruments in their collection (certainly a possibilty), or someone has gotten their dates mixed around...?

2) 430/437 is just as I expected it might be... but so perhaps this diapason info against Philippe's reporting of 442 strengthens the case for there being two instruments?  unless the diapason was brought up to 442 expressly for the sampling session (though this seems unlikely to me)...? @Philippe: what year was the KIViR Schöffstoss sampled and, before I go bugging Fr. Föger further, can you shed any more light on all this?

3) though they have no infos about the provenance of the instrument's diapason, it's perhaps not entirely unlikely that 430 is its original pitch...?  Luc's spot on of course about restoration having changed things though... @Luc: is the original diapason of the Graf and Liszt's Ibach you mentioned known?  In your experience, what's the normal sort of range of variance from an instrument's original pitch to that after it's been restored (as much as there might even be such a thing as a "normal range")?

and here I was all ready to cry "eureka—case solved!"  but the plot seems to have thickened...

cheers,
dj

We recorded the Schöffstoss back in 2006. It is not unsual for a given piano to be tuned to different diapasons during his life: concertist X likes 435 and asks the tuner to tune it at 435. The week after comes concertist Y who would like to have it at 442 because he plays with a violinist who finds that his violin doesn't sound good below 442 (in orchestras, violonists have the reputation of pulling diapason up while brass wind instruments pull it down), so he asks the tuner who tunes it at 442 if he thinks there is no risk. That's how it goes... That's also the reason why I wouldn't give too much importance to the diapason (or the temperament) at which a given piano was tuned on a given day.

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Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: 1812 Schöffstoss original diapason?

Regarding the Graf and the Liszt Ibach I recorded, no I have no idea of the original "out of workshop" pitch, I think that the people who are restoring those pianos may just look for the most "reasonable" pitch given the state of the instrument. Usually relatively low, but not 415 either, this is probably mostly a "baroque" pitch. I recorded other old pianos (Steingraeber "opus one", Pleyel, a "square" piano, etc.), most of them were in the region of 428 Hz or lower.
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