Topic: Velocity 1 = no sound

Hello there,
I have a Casio Privia PX-150.
I encountered a problem while playing around with Pianoteq and my internal digital piano sound.
When note velocity = 1, no sound is being generated by Pianoteq.

I demonstrate this with a video example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol4daZ7cTlI

It's a pre-recorded sequence of notes which are all audible when I play via my internal Privia samples, also audible in FL studio.

For some reason, Pianoteq emits no sound from the third note with velocity 1.

Velocity curve in Pianoteq is default. So velocity=1 should mean sound=1 strength.

Only time when the silent note is audible, is when I make a custom velocity curve with: velocity/sound: 0/1

Dynamics default at 40.

Last edited by Portable Hole (11-01-2019 22:53)

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

Hello Mr. P. H.,

To test your hypothesis that "Note-On Velocity of 1 is inaudible," I launched Pianoteq, and manually adjusted the velocity curve to have a default value of 1, despite whatever velocity my mother controller was sending it.  (Anyone can reproduce the velocity curve to put out Note-On =1 regardless of keyboard velocity, or even a mouse click of the on-screen keyboard for him- or herself.  Try it for yourself: set the velocity curve extremes to 1,1 and 127,1 --- if you accidentally set the velocity curve to 1,0 and 127,0, THEN Pianoteq will receive a note-on velocity value of Zero, in which case the piano will be silent.)

The result is that when Pianoteq receives a Note-On velocity value of 1, it DEFINITELY DOES produce a quiet sound that is soft but clearly audible!

Restated slightly differently, WHEN Pianoteq is sent a Note-On velocity of 1, it is NOT SILENT as you have stated in your original post.  The only way for Pianoteq to produce no sound when a note is played is for the keyboard in question to be SENDING a note-on velocity value of "zero."

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

Thanks Portable hole, that is interesting because..

Joe you're 100% correct and yet there's some un-charted behaviour seeming to be in play too. In spirit of adventure and fun (and maybe to benefit Modartt's ongoing efforts in improving playability)..

If we set the velocity curve as you set out Joe, [1,1 and 127,1] then swipe a mouse across the virtual keys, you'll note that the faster you swipe, the more notes are dropped with no audio, even though red keys follow the cursor.

To prove that's not a mouse (x poll data points per ms etc.)..

If you next set the velocity to ~middle like [0,60 and 127,60] and repeat, you'll see the similar red keys following cursor but also hear more notes.

After beginning experiment and going incrementaly higher, the magic number seems to be velocity 9 where noticeably more notes are included.

I'm wondering if Modartt does discard a % of low velo notes, at least those with no 'note off' data? (to help playability). I do know I feel playability has improved so greatly in recent years but never notice this before

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

In a real piano, it takes maybe a 25-40 velocity to trigger a musical note.  Below that, you'll just get softly increasing hammer brush sounds.

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

I imagine it varies from physical model to model to match the required velocity of the given instrument. I find the velocity response streets ahead of the others I have tried.
Mossy's comment mirrors what I would expect - the OP should consider that pianos are percussive instruments. 0-127 represents an extremely wide range, far beyond the sensitivity of the human hand while playing music (you couldn't even be expected to reliably or consistently aim for a precise value hitting just one key in a non musical experiment). IOW plenty of redundant data space if needs be to replicate realistic dynamic attack rather than making a sound at the lowest note on value for the sake of it. 

I noted that if you pressed so lightly as to not get a note on sound you would still get a note off sound, as per lifting fingers from the keys resonating through the body of the instrument, impressive attention to detail right there.

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

Qexl wrote:

If we set the velocity curve as you set out Joe, [1,1 and 127,1] then swipe a mouse across the virtual keys, you'll note that the faster you swipe, the more notes are dropped with no audio, even though red keys follow the cursor.

Hello Mr. Qexl,

Dang!! I tried the "mouse sweep" technique you described, and you are indeed correct that less "velocity 1" notes get played when the speed of the mouse sweep is increased!  It is very astute of you, Sir, to point this out.

That said, I can only contemplate the impossibility of performing an extremely fast glissando with only a note-on velocity value of only 1. Restated, I cannot think of a time when an extremely fast pppppppp (pianiss-iss-iss-iss-iss-iss-iss-issimo) glissando would be invoked in any type of a piano performance technique or requirement.

Now, back to the question at hand, I would be more inclined to believe Mr. P. Hole's Casio Privia keyboard would more likely be the culprit of causing musical silence upon "striking" the third consecutive key with a note-on velocity value of only 1.

Cheers and thanks again,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (12-01-2019 23:01)

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

Believe you are 100% correct Joe about OP's video - the silent note has a large enough space to be unaffected by the inhuman ppp.p(recurring) glissando effect. I'm sure there's something relating to the keyboard, no note-off being fired, dynamics and internals of Pianoteq which produce that particular result.

This gives me the warmest laugh I've had in a while..

jcfelice88keys wrote:

I can only contemplate the impossibility of performing an extremely fast glissando with only a note-on velocity value of only 1. Restated, I cannot think of a time when an extremely fast pppppppp (pianiss-iss-iss-iss-iss-iss-iss-issimo) glissando would be invoked in any type of a piano performance technique or requirement.

I can't help but imagine a VJ feverishly working on this skill for a Youtube super-duper glissando squared! 'how to' video

Pianoteq really does take human input into account so well - it is my 'next best thing' to a real piano for learning or improving, let alone recording 'the piano'. Its evolution is quite a thing to behold and I see it as a technical/scientific and artistic advancement of great historic importance in the evolution of the instrument - as well as the modellings other impacts in coming time.

Interesting thoughts Mossy and Key Fumbler. It's always fascinating to consider those things. My fastest limits of physical playing can't seem to break anything about the illusion of reality for me. Playing in real time I've never noticed dropped notes but my keyboard does send note-off data which the video shows as absent. Staccato behaviour at human speed is certainly one thing I've observed particularly noticeable improvement in Pianoteq over time.

Wondering how Portable Hole is getting on with any further experiments also.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

Portable Hole wrote:

For some reason, Pianoteq emits no sound from the third note with velocity 1.

This is strange and unexpected.

I tested at my home and it is the same for me:
In Reaper, I manually edited a midi file with notes at velocity 1, and Pianoteq don't play them. By contrast I hear clearly the note off noise of these notes.
But... the same thing happens with Kontakt: no sound for velocity 1 notes...

Is it possible that the value 1 is recognized as a 0?
If so, why?

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

In the MIDI standard, a Note On event with velocity 0 is to be interpreted as a Note Off (instantaneous). So I guess it is sensible to interpret a Note On with velocity 1 as no sound for a given duration.

Last edited by Gilles (13-01-2019 16:38)

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

Gilles wrote:

In the MIDI standard, a Note On event with velocity 0 is to be interpreted as a Note Off (instantaneous). So I guess it is sensible to interpret a Note On with velocity 1 as no sound for a given duration.

Why should a note with velocity 1 be interpreted as "silent"? What would be the difference to playing no note at all? I don't get this.

Also: Why does it make a difference between:

- Playing a note with velocity 1 with the standard linear PTQ velocity curve -> no sound

and:

- Playing any note with velocity curve (0,1);(127,1) which *does* produce sound?

I'm not joining this discussion for the sake of discussion, but because I actually stumbled upon this while playing. I sometimes play at very low velocity and it is quite easy to (accidentally) play notes at velocity 1 with my VPC1. Is is irritating when you don't hear the note then.

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

On a real piano it is possible to strike slowly a key so that the hammer does not reach the string. If the key is held while other notes are played, the silent key will sound by sympathetic resonance. Pianoteq implements correctly this behaviour so I guess this is one possible reason. If you don't like it, simply start your velocity curve at (0,1). I also suppose this was decided because not many keyboards go down to 1 reliably.

If there is a better reason, maybe Philippe could explain.

Last edited by Gilles (18-01-2019 21:05)

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

Gilles wrote:

If you don't like it, simply start your velocity curve at (0,1).

Gilles,
That is not the question.
If you use the factory velocity curve (0-0 ; 127-127), an input velocity of 1 results in an output of 1.
There should be a sound.

Practically it is not a problem for me, in playing situation.
I just would be interested to understand what happens here.

Last edited by stamkorg (19-01-2019 13:03)

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

Perhaps a sound is being produced by Pianoteq even at velocity 1 (assuming the velocity curve has not been altered such that 1 velocity is interpreted as 0), but is just too faint (too low in electrical amplitude) for the physical components of the sound system, the headphones the speakers or the ears to register.

At any rate, it seems that a simple adjustment of the velocity curve in Pianoteq would resolve the issue. In some cases however, a performer might not want extremely low velocity readings to trigger any sound at all, because in modern triple-sensor keyboards, that might trigger a sound even when a note is barely brushed or touched in passing by a finger, and the spurious, unintended note-sounds might become very frustrating.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (19-01-2019 15:35)
--
Linux, Pianoteq Pro, Organteq

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

As far as I understand Pianoteq's velocity map is a velocity map, i.e. you map an incoming MIDI value between 0 and 127 to an outgoing. Pianoteque's sound engine than deals with the mapped value.

This means that an outgoing velocity value of "1" is always rendered the same, and should produce a sound (at least it did always for me).

By the way this is the reason why high resolution MIDI *is* very promising. You won't be able to distinguish a middle value like 64 from 65, but in the lower range it is definitely a huge difference, at least in the more or less linear map we use. I'd love to be able to play velocity below what is currently rendered as "1".

Re: Velocity 1 = no sound

Just a couple of remarks:

As I said earlier velocity 0 is not allowed for a MIDI Note_On event so it makes sense to me that the velocity curve showing a (0,0) value makes no sound at its lowest allowable level MIDI velocity of 1.

I have a keyboard (Yamaha) that allows me to set any fixed velocity value for playing. The lowest possible is 1, the top one 127.

When I use that fixed value of 1 with Pianoteq and boost the volume, all I hear is action noises.

When I play the internal sounds of my keyboard and boost its volume, there is a sound only at velocity 5.

So there is a variety of choices here. It's no big deal in my opinion...

Last edited by Gilles (19-01-2019 16:14)