Topic: Sustain Pedal Noise

After playing some real grands i noticed, that the pedal noise exists of a loud and deep "bump", when you push it too fast all the way down. Thats why i needed to relearn my pedaling technique, to be able to "half pedal" the whole time. Pianoteq's Upright U4 seems to simulate this sound pretty good. But why not on the grands?
It would force the player to pedal properly, with litte movement around the "sweet spot", so that he doesnt learn bad technique.
On the pianoteq grands i can only hear the noise of the strings, when the dampers get liftet up. So increasing the volume doesnt achieve the desired effect.
What are your thoughts on this?

Re: Sustain Pedal Noise

An interesting point. To make the feature work would surely require a velocity-sensitive pedal, though. Do any manufacturers do that, at the moment?

Re: Sustain Pedal Noise

Did you play with the volume of the pedal sound?

Pianoteq 8, most pianos, Studiologic 73 Piano, Casio Px-560M, PX-S 3000, PX-S 1100, PX-S 7000, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro M3, SS Logic SSL 2

Re: Sustain Pedal Noise

Kramster1 wrote:

Did you play with the volume of the pedal sound?

minor7add9 wrote:

On the pianoteq grands i can only hear the noise of the strings, when the dampers get liftet up. So increasing the volume doesnt achieve the desired effect.


dazric wrote:

To make the feature work would surely require a velocity-sensitive pedal, though. Do any manufacturers do that, at the moment?

With velocity sensitive i guess you mean feeling the resistance? In that case:
I dont know about any manufacturer, who does that. But you dont need such a pedal to make sense of this feature (Just a pedal with half damper function). You would need to imagine the sweet spot based on the sound. I already do that, but a realitstic sound would be of help for that. Also, many jazz pianists use this sound for percussive effects.
But i would love to have a resistance simulating pedal.

Re: Sustain Pedal Noise

The half-pedalling feature is brilliant, and I do appreciate that. But yes, I suppose what I'm saying about the velocity (or resistance) is that digital pedals (the ones I've tried anyway) never feel completely realistic, and it would need some incredibly sophisticated technology to do so. Maybe one day digital pedals will catch up with digital keyboard actions in terms of realism.
Is it actually possible to 'bump' the pedal at all with Pianoteq? Next time I'm at the piano I'll try it!

Last edited by dazric (10-12-2018 18:19)

Re: Sustain Pedal Noise

Pianoteq's sustain pedal signal is gradual - so maybe it's down to hardware for the effect to work. Unfortunately, otherwise, it may definitely be limited to on and off if your pedals are not built for gradual pressure sensitivity.

What still might help:

You can alter your pedal's curve to see if that makes some difference to reach your intended gains. Navigate by the small arrows left and right of the "Velocity Curve" box to find it. Maybe choose a longer slope or flatter ramp at top or bottom to alter how quickly or slowly the pedal activates as you press your foot down. You might avoid some 'bad practice' if you get the pedal point closer to what's natural to you.

I think Pianoteq's pedaling behaviour has gained much over the last few versions (including una corda) - always love the idea of more of this kind of improvement. It does separate it from a lot of other VSTIs. I never wish to put other software down, rather Pianoteq inescapably plays a lot more realistic than others to me.

My pedals are pretty solid (Kawai F-30, 3 pedal box), so I don't suffer lightness there, so they physically feel quite real - highly recommend this kind of kit - maybe that lends itself to a better sense of realism. In the past I've used very basic and plastic kit but honestly, it's not a waste of money to acquire solid gear, esp. if the idea is attaining realism and going beyond basics.

Have to say, I'm short on understanding on how the pedals really speak midi (I'll make a point to learn more soon - maybe I'm missing out on some extra ways of making the pedals better here) - but it does feel and sound to me like my half pedalling pays off a lot with current settings - but I'm all for more realism as we progress along the big timeline.

This Pedal Accent and Repedal Accent thread here on the forum by forum member NathanShirley is an interesting glimpse of other elements of playability related to the pedals which could offer a dramatically improved experience if in future Pianoteq can factor in elements from this as well as more detailed basic pedalling.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Sustain Pedal Noise

Very true, Qexl, it is a good investment to acquire a solid pedal assembly. Just got myself a Roland RPU-3 three pedal assembly. It can send continuous pedal info to Pianoteq (via my FP-80 DP midi out). I can see the numbers increment/decrement in the little pop up window that opens in PT when you right-click a pedal representation.
Even my previous single pedal (DP-10 I think) has a switch between on/off mode and continuous mode...except it kept slipping off due to insufficient weight/size.

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Sustain Pedal Noise

I agree with Qexl and aWc, solidity certainly pays off. DP-10 is not bad, it's what I have at the moment, and I'm not dissatisfied with it. Before that I had an old Yamaha pedal which Pianoteq's calibration wizard falsely identified as having half-damper capability, and I spent ages wondering why I couldn't get it to work properly!
Coming back to the original point of the thread, and Nathan's post about the repedal accent, I still think that there would need to be some sort of pressure sensor at the end of the pedal to be able to get different strengths of 'roar' when the pedal goes down.

On second thoughts...
If there was some way to calculate the final impact of the pedal based on its speed, then a fairly realistic simulation might be possible. It would need some very complex algorithms and tricky adjustments to avoid unwanted effects. But then, a few years ago, if someone had said it was possible to have beautiful, playable piano sounds created with just algorithms, I would have just laughed. And now here we are, with Pianoteq 6!

Last edited by dazric (12-12-2018 14:40)

Re: Sustain Pedal Noise

I dont really get why a resistance simulating pedal is nessecary for this. Its definitlely great for the realistic feeling, but the only thing you need is being aware, that the speed in which you press down the pedal (and how far) effects the noise. The Pedal Accent and Repedal Accent Thread is great and shows the possibilities. An implementation would not be more difficult than the creaton and improvement of the piano string sounds, where great results are already there.

Another problem about the current pedaling behavior is, that the sound just seems to be played according to the value which is sent to the sustain pedal map. You just cant move the dampers quiet, no matter how slow. There (at least seems) to be no effect of the velocity.

I would love the have an implementation of this in future releases.

Re: Sustain Pedal Noise

Well yes, as I say in my 'second thoughts', with clever algorithms it may be possible. If it's something to do with piano modelling, Modartt are almost certainly working on it! We'll have to wait and see...