Just wondered if anyone had an idea how to achieve bit more bite when I attack the keys? I have an old Yamaha keyboard that gives me more grunt when playing some power chords in the midrange and wondered if I could manage the same from Pianoteq.
I only have the Stage version but would consider an upgrade if I needed to tweak it in ways I can't do from here.
Thanks for any advise
BW
Well, a lot depends on which preset you are using. You didn't mention which pianos you have, but all of them have a number of presets. The 'Player' or 'Close Mic' presets tend to have more attack than some of the 'Recording' ones. Also, and very importantly, if things seem a bit 'mushy', have a rethink on the Velocity Curve. If you ran the 'keyboard calibration' in the Velocity section and saved the setting, have another go, save it as 'Yamaha version 2' (or whatever), and compare the results. If you have never done the calibration, you need to do that before trying anything else.
Just wondered if anyone had an idea how to achieve bit more bite when I attack the keys? I have an old Yamaha keyboard that gives me more grunt when playing some power chords in the midrange and wondered if I could manage the same from Pianoteq.
I only have the Stage version but would consider an upgrade if I needed to tweak it in ways I can't do from here.
Thanks for any advise
BW
Which Yamaha keyboard do you have? I owned a Yamaha S80, on which the piano samples were extremely loud and bright, the idea being that one was to use a lowpass filter for softer sounds, and then give up on that and buy the add-on piano card, which provided softer samples. I suspect that those hard strikes were compressed and then raised in amplitude. I agree that they are great, and it would be wonderful to get that strong attack. But it may require a compressor and limiter on the YC5.
I have had success getting more bite by increasing the hammer hardness. Especially in the Mezzo range. You probably need the standard version to be able to adjust that. Microphone placement can help, EQ, and adjusting the overtones all can help with that. There are many adjustments you can make with Standard Version that make it worth getting.
EQ is available in Stage, as well as compression, if you want it. But yes, if you like to modify the sound, then Standard is well worth considering (remember that you can install a demo of Standard alongside your Stage - they won't conflict). Do have a look at your velocity curve, though, before you do anything else.
Thanks for the advice guys, the model keyboard i was refering to was my old Yamaha P250, it has a nice crunch when attacked which i couldn't seem to simulate through Pianoteq. In my ideal world i'd like to be able to recreate this bite whilst keeping the lovely Pianoteq tones in other areas.
I'm gonna mess with the EQ's and try the standard sample as recommended....
Kind of a crazy idea, but you could try some distortion from the effects section.
Thanks for the advice guys, the model keyboard i was refering to was my old Yamaha P250, it has a nice crunch when attacked which i couldn't seem to simulate through Pianoteq. In my ideal world i'd like to be able to recreate this bite whilst keeping the lovely Pianoteq tones in other areas.
I'm gonna mess with the EQ's and try the standard sample as recommended....
Thanks for the advice guys, the model keyboard i was refering to was my old Yamaha P250, it has a nice crunch when attacked which i couldn't seem to simulate through Pianoteq. In my ideal world i'd like to be able to recreate this bite whilst keeping the lovely Pianoteq tones in other areas.
I'm gonna mess with the EQ's and try the standard sample as recommended....
I remember the Yamaha P250, and I like the sound of its hard attacks, too. A very worthwhile endeavor, trying to mimic the sound in Pianoteq. Are you using the rock piano model?
Speaking of bite, there's some delicious bite in this Peter Bence recording!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H4rq0L9OSw
Just wondered if anyone had an idea how to achieve bit more bite when I attack the keys? I have an old Yamaha keyboard that gives me more grunt when playing some power chords in the midrange and wondered if I could manage the same from Pianoteq.
I only have the Stage version but would consider an upgrade if I needed to tweak it in ways I can't do from here.
Thanks for any advise
BW
Move your velocity curve (straight line?) northwesterly, in total so that the bottom corner is somewhat off the ground, and the top corner is displaced a similar amount to the left.
I tend to create a convex curve which brightens up the tone, gives more volume and much more bite in the mid range. Works well for all pianos.
Yes, the velocity curve is a vital element in achieving 'your' sound. I know I'm a bit of a broken record on the subject, but it is important! Whether you adjust it manually, or use the calibration wizard, or both, you will certainly notice a difference. You can even save multiple velocity curves and switch between them until you find one that works really well for you.
Budgewink wrote:Thanks for the advice guys, the model keyboard i was refering to was my old Yamaha P250, it has a nice crunch when attacked which i couldn't seem to simulate through Pianoteq. In my ideal world i'd like to be able to recreate this bite whilst keeping the lovely Pianoteq tones in other areas.
I'm gonna mess with the EQ's and try the standard sample as recommended....I remember the Yamaha P250, and I like the sound of its hard attacks, too. A very worthwhile endeavor, trying to mimic the sound in Pianoteq. Are you using the rock piano model?
Which Rock piano model are you referring to?
Jake Johnson wrote:Budgewink wrote:Thanks for the advice guys, the model keyboard i was refering to was my old Yamaha P250, it has a nice crunch when attacked which i couldn't seem to simulate through Pianoteq. In my ideal world i'd like to be able to recreate this bite whilst keeping the lovely Pianoteq tones in other areas.
I'm gonna mess with the EQ's and try the standard sample as recommended....I remember the Yamaha P250, and I like the sound of its hard attacks, too. A very worthwhile endeavor, trying to mimic the sound in Pianoteq. Are you using the rock piano model?
Which Rock piano model are you referring to?
Sorry, I meant the YC5 model, which I often think of as a rock piano, although it can obviously be used for many types of music.
Regardless, have you experimented with the Equalizer presets called "Presence," "Rock" and the others? Not as loud and brassy as those Yamaha samples, but getting closer.
In addition, on the Effects\Compressor page, clicking to the right of "Comp" pulls down a list of presets that includes "Pucnch" and "Grand Piano Medium." These or others may get you closer to the sound we like. (Or one of the sounds, I should say. I do love that bright Yamaha sound, but I like others, too.)
More generally, I think that compression, along with the implied raising of the overall output and the use of the limiter, is key to getting what we are after. I'm also looking into multifrequency compression, and mid/side (M/S) processing, but time is not on my side, right now.
I keep meaning to record a note or two from my old Yamaha P50-m module and post it here as a reference point, but something else always comes up. Do you have the time to post a note or two from your Yamaha unit? That would give us a specific target. I would enjoy trying to emulate a given note, and we would all doubtless learn a bit.
(EDIT: Looking at the Modartt page that lists the available models, I see that the YC5 is called the Rock model in the advertising. But the word "rock" doesn't appear in the name of the instrument when it's loaded in Pianoteq, and often not when it's dicussed in the forum. It's possible to have the rock model without knowing it.)
(EDIT II: Is anyone else here looking into multiband compression or M/S processing for pianos and Pianoteq?)
Good ideas to get more attack above.
Using other methods like multiband compression, you can really create some hyper pushed sounds - just depends on your demands, system and so on. In a DAW you can push and pull anything in any direction but also risk losing some realism a little easier than tweaking in Pianoteq.
If just in Pianoteq, I'd suggest that instead of using compression, try without it - less 'flattening' possible - the perception of attack with a lot of compression can be sound false or shaped when you get used to hearing it, and also you might want to turn off the limiter.
Next, try turning down the main volume -15 or so (and/or the 'level' inside the effects section - or mic levels if balancing them up) - the next step is of course maybe needing more volume by raising your sound system volume instead (depending if recording/playing etc - adjust to your ears or your audio systems' level indicators (For example, in an outboard audio unit, you might have volume in and volume out - balance these until it sounds good, not too hot if recording if poss) - etc - it's going to be different for different situations).
Some reasons and extra things to do:
There's a lot of dynamic range to be had in Pianoteq - it's emulating a beast of an instrument - and if anything, to really get bite, you could do the above for better results rather than crunching and falsely boosting transients (might be OK of course) but in order to get the cleanest signal and greatest dynamic range without pushing limiter into the red, this can help. You are outputting now the most natural shape (wave as viewed in an audio program). Instead of a fat and flat waveform, you'll see a more detailed one. Those peaks and troughs are what you want to look at, they represent your dynamic range from soft to loudest.
From there, as suggested, all those other things like EQ etc. will be more likely to sound more realistic when applied.
(I've posted about the next paras before more than a few times so will try to keep it short)
When I tweak a Pianoteq sound in a DAW, I often like to use more than one instance of Pianoteq. There's no correct things to do but maybe consider very subtle things like making track 1 'normal-ish' and the same preset on track 2 but with way less volume, way more reverb (distant), stereo expanded maybe and heavy EQ and other things to make it sound like wide real room reverb - mix it way down low and bring it up until you notice it, then drop it down a few dB.. add another Pianoteq track with really loud hammer focus and EQ for that.. again, mix it up until it stands out, then drop it a little - with some time and effort you can create quite interesting sounds of your own.
These days though, Pianoteq's default presets are so good, with just a little alteration in Pianoteq you should be able to pull a sound you'll be more than happy with. I basically haven't felt the need to embellish things in a DAW for a while now - I'm basically happy to work mostly without using the DAW for extra shaping - only if making modern music where I don't focus on the piano's realism. Pianoteq is exceptional for creating unreal sounds also which means even less time in the DAW which has been a goal for me for some time, so I'm sure you can push Pianoteq to give you some maximum crunch without too much fuss.
Definitely, you can get great brightness with multiband EQs but maybe attack can be worked on within Pianoteq best. I find the best outcomes I have with tweaking for my tastes is by making probably best described as 'logical' small tweaks to as many things as possible in Pro. Like, hammer hardness as mentioned then a lot of dynamics (mix these with other changes, like to damper settings, unison width, impedance, Q factor, pre and pos EQs and maybe get up close with note-edit to make changes to individual notes' loudness etc - you can draw lines across the range from left to right covering all the keys, or do more painstaking edits to individual notes to help these sing (esp if your song benefits from a few louder strings etc) - all really helpful for making the piano behave exactly the way you want.
Hope some of that makes for some good results - best of luck