Topic by Beto-Music

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Topic: Sellecting a grand piano.

I heard more than once how many pianists like to choose their onw piano among many, even if it was from the same brand & model, produced in the same year, in the same factory by the same crew.  They use to say that each piano it's special, having it's own individuality :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX8wr71VOUo

So I wonder when someone have many piano libraries or many piano softwares, including some modelled, and when they said that prefer for example this Steinway-D from a given softare over that other model, if it's just a matter of the quality of the software or also a matter of the model used to create the given software/library/modelled piano.

Imagining... If they had let's 30 equal pianos for display and choose, allowing buyers to try each one...  what they do with the pianos that was not sellected, or more disliked by professional pianists ?  What they do ?   Special promotions ? Smaller markets for smaller cities???

Last edited by Beto-Music (20-06-2018 18:04)

Reply by Modelling Audio Prod

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Re: Sellecting a grand piano.

It might not be a bad idea for Modartt to create several versions of the same piano model.
But maybe this is already customizable?

I'm wondering how much that would change something, because I've already tried several changes (tuning, voicing, design...), and finally I still hear the same piano with the same individuality.

Last edited by Modelling Audio Prod (20-06-2018 20:55)
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Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: Sellecting a grand piano.

You can make your own versions of the same piano model, in Standard and especially Pro.

Hard work and guts!

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Sellecting a grand piano.

Yes, but I wonder how far it come, comparing to these multi piano tests like in the video.  Maybe some thing are not adjustable yet.
Maybe the real pianos, the little differences between two of a given model, have relation with the bridge, the grain/veins in a specific points where a pin get, or some little difference in the soundboard wood strips, one to each other.

It's not a request, just wondering about.

EvilDragon wrote:

You can make your own versions of the same piano model, in Standard and especially Pro.

Reply by Modelling Audio Prod

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Re: Sellecting a grand piano.

If you change your haircut, you stay with the same individuality, but if your twin have the same haircut as you, you stay different from him.
I always had the impression that with Pianoteq, the settings of tuning, voicing and design only allowed to change "haircut".

I may be wrong, but that's what my ears tell me. And yet, it would seem normal, because I imagine that Modartt was based on only one model for each piano.

I experimented this by making piano duo recordings with the same instrument. My idea was to get a different character for each piano, but I'm not sure if it happened, although of course, the tuning and revocing helps to differentiate the two pianos.

This reminds me of the emulations of some analog consoles in which each input channel has been modeled with its own character, due to manufacturing defects that may occur. The difference appears right away when you change channels, and yet it's the same console.

Maybe it's a way for Pianoteq.

Last edited by Modelling Audio Prod (21-06-2018 14:40)
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Reply by Debussy

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Re: Sellecting a grand piano.

That sounds amazing and it makes sense considering the price and how long it takes to make them

Reply by aandrmusic

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Re: Sellecting a grand piano.

Beto-Music wrote:

I heard more than once how many pianists like to choose their onw piano among many, even if it was from the same brand & model, produced in the same year, in the same factory by the same crew.  They use to say that each piano it's special, having it's own individuality :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX8wr71VOUo

So I wonder when someone have many piano libraries or many piano softwares, including some modelled, and when they said that prefer for example this Steinway-D from a given softare over that other model, if it's just a matter of the quality of the software or also a matter of the model used to create the given software/library/modelled piano.

Imagining... If they had let's 30 equal pianos for display and choose, allowing buyers to try each one...  what they do with the pianos that was not sellected, or more disliked by professional pianists ?  What they do ?   Special promotions ? Smaller markets for smaller cities???

You point out the long known fact that (physical wooden) pianos as final products are very inconsistent.
PART of this is due to the raw materials, no two pieces of wood being exactly the same, and part of it is process (the "skills" factor).
By modern design and manufacturing standards it is a very poor product, i.e. impossible to produce consistently without a large amount of highly skilled labor. 
Even WITH a lot of post production skilled labor the product is still inconsistent.

As to what sales people do with the least liked units...
Fortunately for the industry there is a very wide variation of taste, i.e. different artists will pick different pianos as to what is "best" for their style, music, etc.
There will still be units that are "least liked" - - quite possibly they fob those off onto music schools or home owners who don't play but want the brand name status symbol.

The sampling business has made some strides by selling libraries of particular pianos, not necessarily best concert pianos but those used in famous recordings or at famous places, e.g. Abbey Road studios.
Certainly Modartt could take that path, so could an enterprising pianoteq owner - - by developing fxp files to imitate pianos from particular concert halls or studios.

Last edited by aandrmusic (22-06-2018 11:07)

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Sellecting a grand piano.

The random aspects of wood patter perhaps it's the final frontier of modelled technology.
It's already very close to the real thing, making most people very pleased. Maybe the very little difference that remain, and bother just a very few ultra hard critic persons, it's exactly what in real world it's connect to random aspects of texture among the layers of wood, veins and grains, variances in density... variances in the metal harp, tickness variances, related to iron casting... the placement and needling and hardning of the hammer felts by craftsman.

I imagine if Modartt could one day have a software that would present the player 10 variances of the same model, and the play would play his favorite musics in each, and tells the software what he liked most in each one, for each portion of keyboard and for each velocity, and other aspects, and the software would use these information to set automatically the most perfect piano, for that model, for hin.

aandrmusic wrote:

You point out the long known fact that (physical wooden) pianos as final products are very inconsistent.
PART of this is due to the raw materials, no two pieces of wood being exactly the same, and part of it is process (the "skills" factor).
By modern design and manufacturing standards it is a very poor product, i.e. impossible to produce consistently without a large amount of highly skilled labor. 
Even WITH a lot of post production skilled labor the product is still inconsistent.

As to what sales people do with the least liked units...
Fortunately for the industry there is a very wide variation of taste, i.e. different artists will pick different pianos as to what is "best" for their style, music, etc.
There will still be units that are "least liked" - - quite possibly they fob those off onto music schools or home owners who don't play but want the brand name status symbol.

The sampling business has made some strides by selling libraries of particular pianos, not necessarily best concert pianos but those used in famous recordings or at famous places, e.g. Abbey Road studios.
Certainly Modartt could take that path, so could an enterprising pianoteq owner - - by developing fxp files to imitate pianos from particular concert halls or studios.


Thanks for reply. I imagined something like that, but not a complete "haricut limitation" but partial limitation.
Indee there are more adjusts in pianoteq's piano models than the ones available for Pianoteq-Pro owners.

Yes, I think Modartt only based in only one model for each piano, as far as I know. It would be way too expensive to analise 5 Steingraeber E-272, for example. The final result was incredible anyway.

Modelling Audio Prod wrote:

If you change your haircut, you stay with the same individuality, but if your twin have the same haircut as you, you stay different from him.
I always had the impression that with Pianoteq, the settings of tuning, voicing and design only allowed to change "haircut".

I may be wrong, but that's what my ears tell me. And yet, it would seem normal, because I imagine that Modartt was based on only one model for each piano.

Last edited by Beto-Music (23-06-2018 01:03)

Reply by Modelling Audio Prod

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Re: Sellecting a grand piano.

Beto-Music wrote:

The random aspects of wood patter perhaps it's the final frontier of modelled technology.

You are probably right ...

Beto-Music wrote:

It's already very close to the real thing, making most people very pleased. Maybe the very little difference that remain, and bother just a very few ultra hard critic persons, it's exactly what in real world it's connect to random aspects of texture among the layers of wood, veins and grains, variances in density...

I don’t think this "limit" of Pianoteq will bother anyone, but in fact, this small number of ultra hard critic persons would be very glad to be able to choose between several models of pianos according to their repertoire or their mood of the day.

We mustn’t forget that it is also thanks to ultra hard critic persons like Leif Ove Andsnes (and many others) that the Steinway & Sons company perfects more and more its products to achieve excellence. This is especially what makes their great reputation.

Why then close Pianoteq’s doors to persons like Leif Ove Andsnes, who could never choose the character (the individuality) of their piano?

Beto-Music wrote:

Thanks for reply. I imagined something like that, but not a complete "haricut limitation" but partial limitation.

Yes, I almost agree with you.

The design and voicing options of Pianoteq Pro already allow you to do a lot of things, even if they don’t yet allow you to change wood pieces, etc.

I’m not sure, but I seem to have read somewhere on the Pianoteq website that the modelling process included the restitution of the manufacturing and wear defects of the original instrument. I think this is particularly the case on the historical instruments of the Kremseeg collection where some parts and keyboard keys were damaged.
Which should logically be the same with modern Pianoteq pianos.

Here a piano duo recording test that we made with the Steinway Model D, trying to give a different personality for the two pianos:

https://soundcloud.com/modelling-audio-...-master-eq

Here, the recording context:

http://modelling-audio-expert.com/how-t...ter-track/

Here is a harp quartet recording test ... We also tried to give individuality to each of the harps with Pianoteq's tuning, voicing and design options; but for me, that doesn’t change very much. My ears hear exactly the same harp, with only a different 'haircut'.

https://soundcloud.com/modelling-audio-...g-mastered

Here, the recording context:

http://modelling-audio-prod.com/experim...iner-saal/

http://modelling-audio-expert.com/how-t...recording/

Beto-Music wrote:

It would be way too expensive to analise 5 Steingraeber E-272, for example.

Only Modartt has the answer to this question, but I’m sure that if they succeed in captivating the interest of pianists like Leif Ove Andsnes by modeling 5 different Steinway pianos, the cost won’t have much more importance compared to their profitability and reputation.

Last edited by Modelling Audio Prod (23-06-2018 10:38)
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