Topic by sjgcit

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Topic: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

I've been considering a new keyboard and the main issue I have is space(size).  At the risk of committing heresy my skills will never need hammer action so I'm OK with reasonable synth keys.  But my main complaint is the layout.  All 61 key controllers seem to start at C, where I'd prefer them to run from F (which I've begun to think is a better range for pieces).  Does anyone have any knowledge of a 61 key controller starting at F ?

Or for that matter do any of the better musically educated of you think the idea of a 61 key keyboard starting at F is no better or worse than one starting at C ?

I was considering an SL73 as a possible alternative (it's a fraction larger than I'd like, but maybe OK).  That does start at F.  Any comments on that model (noting I'm not a serious pianist and never expect to even play a real acoustic).  I'd like the extra keys and an 88 or 76 key model is not likely to fit.  76 key models do seem to start at F normally.

StephenG

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

I have never seen a 61 key unit that's F-F.

Hard work and guts!

Reply by Arkanda

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

Except this one:
https://www.roland.com/us/products/c-30/

61 Keys "F-scale"
However, not exactly a pure MIDI Keyboard,
more a digital harpsichord at a higher price range

Reply by tfort

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

The Dexibell Vivo S1 is 68 keys, but doesn’t start where you’d like. I don’t think you’re going to find a narrower 73-key board than the Studiologic SL 73.

Maybe the S1 will fit in your space and you could get by with the octave shift?

Reply by OrganoPleno

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

sjgcit wrote:

Does anyone have any knowledge of a 61 key controller starting at F ?

If you find a suitable Keyboard which you can (non-destructively) take apart, maybe you could re-build it with an "F" key at the bottom, put everything back in order, and use the un-cut top "C" key as an un-cut top "F" key.  The shapes of all the keys would be the same, and everything ought to fit just fine.  Then all you have to do is re-define (or shift) your MIDI-output so the lowest key plays an "F" (in the desired octave, normally that would be the "F" below low-C) instead of the default "C".

Good luck!  And if it works... be sure to let us know. (This could be a First!)

Reply by steve200

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

If you give up, and settle for a C-C 61, I'd recommend you try the M-Audio Keystation 61.  I really like it.  Has semi-weighted action.

steve200

Reply by sjgcit

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

The C-30 is out of price range anyway, but I think it's a different action (they describe it as a "click" action) and I suspect it's modeled on real harpsichord actions which won't give the kind of control I'd want for piano-like music.  Interesting, as I didn't know of it.  The C-30 manual was interesting reading and it does seem to be a proper MIDI keyboard.  I wonder if Pianoteq's own harpsichords have ever been played with it.

The Dexibell S1 seems to match the profile of the bass structure of a traditional 88-key model, which is interesting.  The width is the same as the SL73 (or very close) and if it's a choice I'd prefer the 73 keys to the 68 keys (although how much difference does 5 keys make really ?).  And as I used Pianoteq the sound from the S1 is irrelevant (to me).

The idea of hacking an existing 61 key keyboard is alarmingly appealing !  Can't quite shake this idea.  I suspect a soldering iron would turn out to be needed (not my thing) but I'm intrigued.  Very likely to have a careful look inside my existing keyboard (but probably not brave enough to do it !).

Thanks for the input guys.  Plenty of think about.

StephenG

Reply by Arkanda

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

sjgcit wrote:

The idea of hacking an existing 61 key keyboard is alarmingly appealing !  Can't quite shake this idea.  I suspect a soldering iron would turn out to be needed (not my thing) but I'm intrigued.  Very likely to have a careful look inside my existing keyboard (but probably not brave enough to do it !).

This has been done at least with a MIDI Basspedal:
The electronics are available from Doepfer and they recommend to take two 13-keys bass pedals from Fatar,
remove the superfluos double "C"-key between them by simply cutting into the unit,
then soldering together again the connections that have been separated by cutting.
So then you have a 25-key bass pedal! See the webpage here:
http://www.doepfer.de/MBP25.htm
and the manual with the handicrafts instructions (from page 13 on):
http://www.doepfer.de/pdf/MBP25_Manual.pdf
Very interesting... and amazing that it really works this way!

Reply by Hartmut

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

sjgcit wrote:

The C-30 manual was interesting reading and it does seem to be a proper MIDI keyboard.  I wonder if Pianoteq's own harpsichords have ever been played with it.

This is that point, I'm highly interrested in! I definitely plan to order the keybed of the Roland C-30 as a spare-part from Roland company. I even know the price already, this part costs (in Germany) 902,-- Euros plus shipping. OK, this is really expensive for just a 61's keybed, which needs at first to be setted up to a proper MIDI keyboard. But my reason to order it, is simpy: it's worldwide the only one electronic keybed with that typical click-action of a harpsichod and furthermore the only one with the harpsichord's f-scale. So it's an absolute must-have for playing all the beautiful sampled or modelled harpsichords of today with the feel and the keybed-scale of a real harpsichord, spinet or clavichord. After recieving this part it will need to be soldered with the electronics board of a conventional C-scale MIDI-keyboard and then transposed in half-tones from C to F. Such a MIDI-keyboard costs 100 Euros, so it costs 1.000 Euros together. But, as I said, it's really the only way to avoid to buy a complete Roland C-30 for 3.700 Euros just for playing virtual harpsichords on a perfect harpsichord-keyboard.

Reply by etorgerson

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

I have an inexpensive and easy  solution that I plan to try over the holidays.
I have been exploring baroque lit using the old Roland sample sets in the Super Set 07 (imho still good harpsichord samples with a good variety front and back 8’ and French style full set with lute stops as well) and getting stuck on the bottom like you.

We should be able to modify an old 61-key m-audio keystation by removing and reinstalling / shifting the keys to start at F. The last key on the right should be the same C-style as there is not a last black key. There are plenty of videos and posts about repairing the keybed that show how to do this. Minimal tools required and the keystation has a semitone scale transpose function.

Will post again when done.

Reply by dv

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

sjgcit wrote:

The C-30 is out of price range anyway, but I think it's a different action (they describe it as a "click" action) and I suspect it's modeled on real harpsichord actions which won't give the kind of control I'd want for piano-like music.  Interesting, as I didn't know of it.  The C-30 manual was interesting reading and it does seem to be a proper MIDI keyboard.  I wonder if Pianoteq's own harpsichords have ever been played with it.

The Dexibell S1 seems to match the profile of the bass structure of a traditional 88-key model, which is interesting.  The width is the same as the SL73 (or very close) and if it's a choice I'd prefer the 73 keys to the 68 keys (although how much difference does 5 keys make really ?).  And as I used Pianoteq the sound from the S1 is irrelevant (to me).

The idea of hacking an existing 61 key keyboard is alarmingly appealing !  Can't quite shake this idea.  I suspect a soldering iron would turn out to be needed (not my thing) but I'm intrigued.  Very likely to have a careful look inside my existing keyboard (but probably not brave enough to do it !).

Thanks for the input guys.  Plenty of think about.

Many people do something similar (for totally different reasons). No soldering necessary. For example:

http://www.balanced-keyboard.com/BuildOne.aspx

http://plover.stenoknight.com/2018/06/m...steno.html

Where do I find a list of all posts I upvoted? :(

Reply by etorgerson

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Re: MIDI Keyboards : 61 keys from F-to-F not C-to-C

etorgerson wrote:

I have an inexpensive and easy  solution that I plan to try over the holidays..

Will post again when done.

Unfortunately. the keybed spacing was not symmetrical, so F-B had big gaps and C-E was tight.

Oh well!