Topic: Factory preset for realistic practise experience on headphones?

Hi everyone,

I have Pianoteq Stage 6.1.1. I'm wondering if there is a factory preset, for the Steinway Model D, designed especially for practise with headphones.

I have read the descriptions of the following presents, and I've tried them all.  But I'm not sure which one most realistically emulates the experience of sitting at a real piano as you would for practise (and indeed for performance too).

1. Steinway D Home
2. Steinway D Player Wide
3. Steinway D Player Clean
4. Steinway D Binaural

Thanks

Michal

Re: Factory preset for realistic practise experience on headphones?

Hello Michal,

I loaded the four Steinway presets you described above, and did so in the same order that you had mentioned.

Here are my findings:
The headphone experience is INCAPABLE of reproducing the live experience of sitting at a real grand piano and playing it as seated on the bench located in front of the keys.  The main reason is that the sounds as heard through headphones ... seem to come from INSIDE one's head, along a line situated behind your eyeballs and extending from ear-to-ear, rather than from an instrument in front of you (OUTSIDE your head) at which you are seated.  When I listened to all of your mentioned presets (and indeed for all of Pianoteq's presets for all modeled pianos), I can distinctly tell that the audio signal is panned left or right or together to form a center experience.  However, when a signal is panned to the right (for example) in a pair of headphones, that simply means the signal is attenuated in the left earcup!  Such does not happen when you are seated at a real piano:  BOTH EARS hear sound emanating from the rightmost side of the piano when you play the highest notes!  While I agree that none of the sound is panned hard right or hard left, even the most sophisticated and expensive headphones/earbuds are incapable of reproducing the effect of both ears sensing sound coming from the right or left side of the keyboard.

Headphones are incapable of reproducing a "vertical" element to the hearing experience, at least in a way one hears from a real piano.  This is even more true when you are seated at a good grand piano whose lid is propped wide open.  In the real thing, you can hear sounds from "above" bouncing off the insides of the raised lid.  You also hear sounds of the piano's action action ... simultaneously originating from a plane BELOW ear level.  Moreover, you hear the sound of the piano reflecting off the floor and into your ears.  These reflected sounds are different if the piano is placed on a wooden floor, a tiled floor, or on a carpeted floor.

Using any electronic keyboard (as opposed to being seated at a real grand piano), there is no "tactile feedback" of the soundboard's vibrations happening to vibrate back through the action and into your fingers!  Want proof? Try playing an interval of a minor second on a pair of the lowest bass notes, and notice how your fingers pick up vibrations representing the positive- and negative reinforcement of the sound waves.  (When tuning a piano, I regularly use this tactile vibratory feedback of the keys' surfaces to detect "beats" when two notes are sounded together.)

Even when you play high notes on a real grand piano, especially when the lid is fully raised, you will ALSO HEAR the soundboard sending you high frequencies from the "bass section" of the soundboard.  Why?  That's because the grains of a spruce soundboard run parallel to the bridges, so as to carry the sound more or less evenly across the entire soundboard!  The same thing happens in an opposite sense when you play bass notes on a large grand piano:  you will also hear some of the sound coming from the right side of the piano!

As stated earlier, there is no pair of headphones or earbuds with current technology that can accurately reproduce these effects as though they are occurring "outside" the confines of those headphones!

* * * * *
Enough of my rambling.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Factory preset for realistic practise experience on headphones?

jcfelice88keys wrote:

The headphone experience is INCAPABLE of reproducing the live experience of sitting at a real grand piano and playing it as seated on the bench located in front of the keys. ...

all of which i think argues for either Dave's notion of using a transducer arrangment or, as i'd propose, some sort of quadriphonic+sub(s) arrangement to reproduce/emulate soundboard radiation...

but if one is stuck with using heaphones (as the OP seems to indicate) then i'd suggest that binaural is probably the way to go as it, purportedly at least, attempts to compensate for these very irremediable failings Joe mentions and is, in fact, "designed especially for practise with headphones"...

ymmv

Matthieu 7:6

Re: Factory preset for realistic practise experience on headphones?

mcihelka88 wrote:

Hi everyone,

I have Pianoteq Stage 6.1.1. I'm wondering if there is a factory preset, for the Steinway Model D, designed especially for practise with headphones.

I have read the descriptions of the following presents, and I've tried them all.  But I'm not sure which one most realistically emulates the experience of sitting at a real piano as you would for practise (and indeed for performance too).

1. Steinway D Home
2. Steinway D Player Wide
3. Steinway D Player Clean
4. Steinway D Binaural

Thanks

Michal

For the Steinway D, I like the Prelude preset, which is a player's perspective.
The Steinway D Player is a little too bassy for me.
I am not totally satisfied with the Binaural presets generally.

So, for the Steinway D and to play with headphones, I would say:
1. Steinway D Prelude
2. Steinway D Home
3. Steinway D Player clean


For the K2, for example, I like the "Close mic" preset


For me, the best immersive experience with headphones is with the YC5 Home. Try it.

Re: Factory preset for realistic practise experience on headphones?

Joe is right, I agree ”headphone experience is INCAPABLE of reproducing the live experience of sitting at a real grand piano and playing it as seated on the bench”. But, the meaning with binaural is of course to overcome this. Although many people are not satisfied with binaural yet. In Ptq you can make the head a bit bigger and drag it away a bit from the piano, but it is not yet the right live experience (but I use it sometimes). Everyone’s head and ear canal have different size, so if your head/ear canal don’t have the same size as the the one used for the recording, the brain can’t reproduce/copy the sound right.  And then we have, that when playing we are moving our head, as I said in another thread. But, I read somewhere that there are people working on this, so maybe binaural is the future for headphones, maybe a new audioformat?
Well, that’s what I think about it.

Re: Factory preset for realistic practise experience on headphones?

Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:

Joe is right, I agree ”headphone experience is INCAPABLE of reproducing the live experience of sitting at a real grand piano and playing it as seated on the bench”. But, the meaning with binaural is of course to overcome this. Although many people are not satisfied with binaural yet. In Ptq you can make the head a bit bigger and drag it away a bit from the piano, but it is not yet the right live experience (but I use it sometimes). Everyone’s head and ear canal have different size, so if your head/ear canal don’t have the same size as the the one used for the recording, the brain can’t reproduce/copy the sound right.  And then we have, that when playing we are moving our head, as I said in another thread. But, I read somewhere that there are people working on this, so maybe binaural is the future for headphones, maybe a new audioformat?
Well, that’s what I think about it.

Hello Mr. PTQEnthusiast,

I was only answering the question posed, i.e., how to use headphones to re-create the acoustic piano playing experience.  My initial answer may have sounded overly harsh:  It was an indictment of the headphone experience and was NOT intended to be negative towards Modartt's products.  In my own experience, Pianoteq is the most cutting-edge product I know of, especially in terms of playability from the standpoint of a pianist who performs live.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Factory preset for realistic practise experience on headphones?

Thank you so much everyone for your comprehensive answers. Having a better understanding now of the limitations of using headphones, and your various experiences with the different presets, I am more confident to just go ahead and choose a preset that "feels the best".

@jcfelice88keys I totally understand what you mean by lack of tactile feedback and lack of vibrational feedback through the keys and indeed the air around me and the piano. In the future I may look to use speakers and sub to bring some physical-nes back to the whole experience. For now headphones are all I can do, I'm in an apartment and the walls are a bit thin.

BTW for those that are interested, I am finding that while all of the shortlisted presets are quite usable, "Steinway D Home" feels and works the best for me. In particular, material I record using this preset plays back beautifully against the "Steinway D Classical Recording AB" preset.  This approach, for me, works like real life where the sound you hear as you play is always form the piano seat, but the audience or recording gear hears things from a distance.

M

Last edited by mcihelka88 (19-05-2018 05:14)

Re: Factory preset for realistic practise experience on headphones?

I play with a Kawaipiano with speakers. I can play Pianotheq on headphones and at the same time make the speakers sound at a medium volume. Together, that gives a feel that comes a little closer to a real grand.

Pianoteq 7 Pro with all pianos