Topic by User123123123

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Topic: close micing sound with keyboard noise

Hi,

What I feel Pianoteq lacks is the possibility to generate a really intimate close miced sound, with pronounced key noise.

The hammer noise and also key up noise currently included comes more from the inside of the piano and is merely a "plock" with a lot of bass and not much more.

I would like to have the finger/key down/up sounds, from the inside and outside of the piano, and with much more design/micing options. Like you can hear in some recordings of Niels Frahm or Jon Hopkins, the intimate cinematic sound that is popular these days.

Currently I think the hammer and key up sounds aren't even influenced by the micing setup, they are just sounds added on top. If this could also be modelled through the mic section that would be an improvement. But I think there should also be a selection of samples, capturing more parts of the mechanics of a piano inside and the keyboard outside.

Last edited by User123123123 (16-05-2018 11:17)

Reply by jcfelice88keys

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Re: close micing sound with keyboard noise

User123123123 wrote:

Hi,

<...>
Currently I think the hammer and key up sounds aren't even influenced by the micing setup, they are just sounds added on top.
<...>

Well, you are half right in that the key release- and damper pedal noises are grafted onto the piano model's sounds:  The hammer and pedal sounds ARE ABLE TO BE influenced by the micing setup, but ONLY when the microphones' Level (loudness) compensation is switched off.

I tried a little experiment each with the Grotrian and the Blüthner pianos, artificially moving the virtual microphones to be very far away from the piano.  When trying the damper pedal -- at first -- there was no discernible difference in the noises.  But when I switched the Level (loudness) Compensation to "Off", then the pedal noises were almost silenced, even when I maxed out the Damper Pedal Noise slider's loudness to +25dB.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joe

Reply by dazric

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Re: close micing sound with keyboard noise

Thanks Joe, that's very useful info also to those of use who wish to reduce, rather than exaggerate, the mechanical noises!

Reply by User123123123

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Re: close micing sound with keyboard noise

Thanks for the reply!
You a right, you can bring out the noises or hide them away pretty extremely, but the noises themselves don't change except in loudness. It all just doesn't sound very natural. Key up sounds aren't sensitive to velocity (on/off), they are adjusted according to how long you hold a note, which physically doesn't make sense. They should really change in sound and volume depending on note off velocity. And it would be cool to have key down noises, sensitive to note on velocity. And these noises should change with the distance of microphones of course, and should mabye have their own EQ.

I know I am wishing a lot. I am just describing what I dream of, a customizable noisy piano sound.

Reply by jcfelice88keys

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Re: close micing sound with keyboard noise

Hello Mr. User,

I agree with you that the sounds seemingly do not change when a given key note is released.  Why?  Well, that's because the vast, vast majority of electronic midi keyboards default to a Note Off Velocity value of 64.

I have not done this recently, but a while ago, I went into Digital Performer (DAW then only for Mac, but now available for Windows) and programmed a series of eighth notes followed by eighth rests, and manually edited the Note OFF velocities from about 10- to 64- to 127, and back again down towards zero.  Lo and behold, Pianoteq's note release noises DID CHANGE in loudness, but they did not change in pitch.

Incidentally, I tried this trick on all sections of the keyboard (but admittedly not every key-off velocity on every note), with the same results.

Short answer:  Note-off characteristics do not change because keyboards default to Note-Off velocity - 64.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joe

Reply by User123123123

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Re: close micing sound with keyboard noise

Hmm I just checked in Cubase. In the list editor a note has value1, value2 and value3. Value1 is the note, value2 note-on velocity, so I assume value3 is note-off velocity. It was all 64 by default. I changed it to values from 0 to 127, but it does not affect key up noise volume. The key up noise varies a little from key to key,  but it seems to be independent off velocities.

Reply by jcfelice88keys

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Re: close micing sound with keyboard noise

User123123123 wrote:

Hmm I just checked in Cubase. In the list editor a note has value1, value2 and value3. Value1 is the note, value2 note-on velocity, so I assume value3 is note-off velocity. It was all 64 by default. I changed it to values from 0 to 127, but it does not affect key up noise volume. The key up noise varies a little from key to key,  but it seems to be independent off velocities.


Hello Mr. User:

I stand corrected, with Version 6.1.1 at least:  I step-entered a number of quarter notes/crotchets, all at the same Note ON velocity into Digital Performer, and then varied the note-off velocity from 0 to 127.  Indeed, no changes were noted in the volumes or timbers of note-off noises.

Please disregard my previous reply to this thread.

Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (20-05-2018 14:52)