headphones v. speakers (tinnitus?)

Yes might be a good idea to limit the time spent with headphones, and most of the time play at the lowest acceptable volume. Even with Yamaha speakers, which can be a bit harsh in the treble anyway, it might be good to once again keep the volume as low as you can. If you are recording, you will have to bump the volume up from those lower levels, so you may have to take more frequent breaks. I would also recommend EQ'ing to remove any problem frequencies when playing - ears are more sensitive to some frequencies than to others. I think many of the more recently made headphones and speakers are equipped with metallic tweeters, mids, and even woofers that produce frequencies that can be a bit painful (and that sound unnatural if poorly implemented). Generally, I would not fear any slight tinnitus, I think it's part of the game for many of us as we get older.

Not sure - but if they are right up against the keyboard, the imaging may suffer (usually an equilateral triangle arrangement of two speakers and one head is preferred). Also, sounds from the left/right speaker in that setup would be harder to hear with your right/left ear since direct (non-reflective and non-diffractive) sounds would have to pass through more of your head to be heard. In such a setup, I wager that some listeners would increase the volume in a somewhat vain effort to obtain a more natural sound (one in which the left and right speakers are more spatially integrated). OTOH, others may not feel that need and would not increase the volume. In any event, the closer the speakers, the lower the volume setting should be to protect hearing. In a non-reflective idealized environment, the sound intensity acts like the gravitational field intensity created by a point source or uniform sphere of matter - the intensity decreases by a factor of four when the distance from the speaker to your ear is doubled (called the inverse square law in physics). If you move your speakers from 2 ft to 3 feet away, the latter being a fairly standard distance for smaller near-field speakers, the intensity drops to 1/[(1.5)x(1.5)] = 44.4% of the intensity at 2 feet, for example.  That 55.6% decrease is substantial! You may know all this anyway....

@honjr You can always reduce stereo separation from within Pianoteq: "Stereo width" slider after clicking on the microphone icon under "Output".

Tinnitus it's a sympton, not neceserelly a disease. It can have different causes and one cause it's hearing loss or damage to the auditive cells.  Other causes can go from crystal dislocation in inner ear, hepatitis, inner ear pressure, too much old wax in inner ear, hormonal imbalances ou neurologic problems.
Pulsatile tinnitus (rings when the heart beats) can have as cause blood flow in irregular way near the ear (venous hum), or meniere disease (sepecially if together with dizzeness and regurgitation during episodes).
You should go to a doctor, ask a audiometry test, get the ear examinated or cleaned/washed if needed.

A good quality headphone helps to avoid the need to increase volume too much.
Headphones that cover the ear completely help reduce environment noises and reduces the need of high volume seting.

Guys,

Thanks again!

As yet, I only have *hints* of tinnitus, or possibly none at all, and I want to keep it that way.

I've come to three conclusions, based on this very helpful thread:

1) Just as part of health maintenance, I will go to ENT, to have hearing checked, wax cleaned, and discuss risk from headphone use.  I am not sure there is definitive info in medical literature, but I'll learn what I can.

2) I will reduce use of headphones, and keep volume lower across the board, both for piano and music listening. I will use speakers when I can (eg, before kids are asleep)

3) I will use EQ to significantly reduce the highs.  I  experimented with this, and it makes a big difference.

steve

My thoughts. I have changed to open back headphones (Grado Labs SR80i). I thought that as long as I can hear people speaking in the room when playing, the level is not too high for me. But, if I play some hours, after that the ”hiss” is a bit worse for some time. Maybe, for me, it is not fine to keep volume low either. So I am going to use speakers more often now. (And speakers are better when mixing).
However, I think I am not qualified to give any advise to others in this topic. But, I do as EvilDragon recommended some years ago - a pause of 10-15 minutes every hour help. Hearing is important. In my opinion, we must remember to preserve/protect our hearing. Hopefully everyone find their own way. Otherwise, maybe, we someday experience a pianosound as good, although it as a matter of fact, sounds very bad.
- Well, just thoughts.

And @honjr ..(usually an equilateral triangle arrangement of two speakers and one head is preferred) Agree, and in addition, dont forget to turn the speakers frontside towards yourself (have seen people that dont do it).

And thanks again to Modartt, for creating this helpful community between Ptq users.

It's also good to get blood tests for hepatitis and thyroid grand (TSH and T4 exam).

A lot of people have hepatitis and tyroid gland problems and don't know.

If it's something in the labyrinth, you can make a test in home. Lay on bed, and move the head to the sides, like in the figure, and observe of the tinnitus is reduced. But don't move fast.

Cross fingers to be just a large gross piece of wax :

High frequencies are much more likely to cause hearing problems than mid or lower frequencies.

Headphones are more dangerous simply because people tend to listen at much higher volumes than they do with speakers.

For me, the very highest frequencies in Pianoteq (that is the highest ones I can hear) are very pronounced, very "separated" from one another. They're so pronounced it's easy for me to hear where they end and where my slight tinnitus begins. Attenuating this upper range a bit eliminates the issue for me. For reference, I'm 36.

Whether you use headphone or speakers, the problem is how loud they are. They will both cause hearing damage. An EQ isn't really a reliable way to prevent hearing damage. If you are worried, purchase a loudness meter (they are fairly cheap) and test out the levels you normally set them to - then refer to online charts about loudness levels and the advised listening periods. Point it at the speakers from your listening position, and point it into your headphones - also, you can see just how loud the world is by carrying it around with you A few hours in a busy bar or town centre can fatigue your ears substantially, making them more susceptible to hearing loss if you continued this exposure for long and repeated periods. So watch out, it's not just music that can give your tinnitus.

You are right, in that your ears have a flatter frequency response at louder levels, so things sound better louder to a certain extent (around 85db). But, I always limit my listening time at these volumes. Basically, make sure you take breaks, and periods of much lower levels. You can feel if your ears are tired. Most people get tinnitus at they grow older, though most only notice it once it gets really bad. So it's good to realise any damage early and mitigate it

I have an update to my last post.  I realized that I should --of course-- get data from the keyboard.

Just did it.  Definitely louder than listening to music on my laptop.

A volume I consider at the low end of exceptable, to hear and feel what I am playing, was coming in at highs of around 65.

The volume I'd like to play at, if left to my own devices, was coming in with highs near 75.

The speakers were similar.

steve200

Those numbers, and your exposure times should not result in any hearing damage, for a typical human. However, your slight tinnitus could be because your ears are more sensitive than others. For most people your ears will hurt or feel fatigued if it's too loud - muscles will tighten your tympanic membrane to help reduce the ears response to loud sounds, but for some people this isn't always effective and varies from person to person. By analogy, your ears don't have as good as defensive mechanism as, say, your eyes, where your built in reflexes simply don't allow you to look at the sun, for example! However, your ears are arguably far superior to your eyes in terms of their overall capabilities... - just food for thought if you want further reading

It is entirely possible that your slight tinnitus has nothing to do with how much you listen to music or are exposed to loud environments. Few humans are perfect

Personally I do have quite sensitive ears, so I always wear ear-plugs at gigs and stuff. I always encourage people to set good educational standards to those around them with regards to sound levels - I always cringe when I hear people on public transport with earbuds blaring away, byebye ears. If you grow up doing that, and going to gigs/clubs on a regular basis without ear-plugs it is inevitable you will develop tinnitus and hearing damage earlier on in life. There are next to no rules on how loud a venue can be, and very little information on how you can cause yourself hearing damage. Don't get me wrong, loud music is great! Just be wary of exposure.

Here is a nice "quick and dirty" reference:  A household gasoline-powered lawnmower (running, of course) emits approximately 85 decibels from a distance of 5 feet from the motor.  I remember this fact from an OSHA meeting on noise pollution, when I was still employed as a Metallurgical Engineer in the steel industry -- now retired.  OSHA (the Occupational Safety & Health Act) specifies no more than 30 minutes' exposure per 8 hour work shift of this continuous sound pressure level before mandating hearing protection.

Cheers,

Joe

This was mentioned briefly above, but it's my understanding that it's the overall sound pressure level (SPL) and duration that your ears are subjected to that will influence long term hearing health; not the source of it. Given that, a good pair of SEALED headphones will give you a better reference by dimming ambient noise, letting you hear critical detail at lower SPL since it won't be competing with background noise as much.

If you're the kind of person that's thinking about this at all, I wouldn't worry about headphone use. The problems are arising from vastly different usage patterns (and ignorance)...i.e. cranked earbuds 7-8 hours a day. Instead, pick up a good set of earplugs (like the 'flat' response ones etymotics and now a bunch of other companies offer) and put them on a keychain so they're with you EVERYWHERE ELSE. Busy streets, crowded restaurants or bars, work areas, and of course anywhere loud music is playing; there are a lot of places you'll find unhealthy ambient noise levels that will do much more damage to your hearing than restrained headphone use. I cannot tell you how often I've been glad to have mine

Actually, this is not strange at all.  What you are experiencing is a quasi-delay effect of about 10 milliseconds between your open-backed headphones and your speakers whose sound takes approximately 1 millisecond per foot distance between speakers and your ears.

In a different thread in the Pianoteq forum, I stated how I enjoy playing music through open-backed AKG K-702 headphones and powered subwoofer to much the same effect (to the dismay of my wife who is absolutely convinced I am going crazy(!)), except I am shooting to get the visceral feeling from the subwoofer instead of a quasi-delay effect from full range loudspeakers.

Cheers,

Joe

awesome.
glad to hear your ears are ok.