Topic by Jake Johnson

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Topic: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

Like many microphone companies, Shure has a demo page that lets one listen to recordings made with their mics. Their piano recordings are worth a listen for the attack and the general presence of the sound. Much clarity on each note  in chords and a nice sustain. I usually don't associate Shure with piano recordings, since the popular SM57 and SM58 roll off the bass and accent the upper range a bit, but these recordings are made with very different mics. They may still be a little brighter than some people prefer, but it's a good sound for jazz and popular music in general, for me. Unfortunately, the Shure site makes no mention of the make or model of the piano used for the recordings.

From the following linked page, click on the piano icon at the right. Note that the play controls are below each picture of each mic:

http://www.shure.com/americas/support/t...tening-lab

(Not so subtle subtext: It would be nice to have their better mics modelled for Pianoteq, if we could get this sound, particularly in the midrange. Intimate, with that nice rustle....)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (11-09-2016 16:44)

Reply by skip

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Re: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

Jake Johnson wrote:

(Not so subtle subtext: It would be nice to have their better mics modelled for Pianoteq, if we could get this sound, particularly in the midrange. Intimate, with that nice rustle....)

Here's a clip using some microphones that Pianoteq does model - the U87 (yes?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRbs4Bq3UX4

That sounds pretty damn good to me as well. ;^)

Greg.

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Re: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

Interesting, and beautiful (well, at least solid and presentable).

It was interesting to see that the two mics (I assume the others around the pianist were not being used) are in a vertical position - I have always been pointing my mics down or towards the piano.  Lots of subtleties, certainly.

- David

Reply by skip

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Re: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

dklein: Yes, according to the info just under the video, only the U87s are used here:

This excerpt is of two Neumann U87 microphones spaced 30 cm apart at the foot of the piano.

Btw, I don't love this sound - it sounds a bit harsh and thin, but it sounds very clear - I have no idea whether that's due to the mics or what.

I think it would be more scientific to compare the Shure mics with other mics, in an identical environment. Then, if the Shures really do stand out, we might be able to conclude that they are special, and worth modelling in Pianoteq.  I have a sneaking suspicion that if we were to do that test, other makes, including ones that Pianoteq already models, would sound just as good, even if they didn't sound identical.

Greg.

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

skip wrote:

dklein: Yes, according to the info just under the video, only the U87s are used here:

This excerpt is of two Neumann U87 microphones spaced 30 cm apart at the foot of the piano.

Btw, I don't love this sound - it sounds a bit harsh and thin, but it sounds very clear - I have no idea whether that's due to the mics or what.

I think it would be more scientific to compare the Shure mics with other mics, in an identical environment. Then, if the Shures really do stand out, we might be able to conclude that they are special, and worth modelling in Pianoteq.  I have a sneaking suspicion that if we were to do that test, other makes, including ones that Pianoteq already models, would sound just as good, even if they didn't sound identical.

Greg.

Yes, it's hard to say what contribution the mics make, since there are so many variables--the room and room treatment, the placement, et al. And for their better instrument mics, Shure is claiming a flat freq curve, so the mic is supposedly only recording what is there. And there is the mic preamp--tube or no tube. Yet even in the mic, there can be variables--the size of the capsule, the off-axis response. What I do notice when hearing instruments played live through mics, however, is that they do make a difference.  Different mics with very similar specs often sound different. I suppose it's ther combination of small differences that create a distinct difference in the resulting sound? But I'm not sure where knowing that leads in terms of modeling specific mics.

Is the main factor, assuming that the freq curve is indeed flat or nearly flat, be the preamp? Perhaps more control there would create a wider range of tones? We now have the tube gain as an effect, but I think this applied at the end of the signal chain. Very different from having separate tubes on each mic. But of course that assumes that the mic preamps are the major contributor to the differences in tone.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (12-09-2016 15:46)

Reply by skip

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Re: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

Jake Johnson wrote:

And for their better instrument mics, Shure is claiming a flat freq curve, so the mic is supposedly only recording what is there.

Pianoteq already has a mic called "perfect". ;^)

Is the main factor, assuming that the freq curve is indeed flat or nearly flat, be the preamp?

I don't know much about micing, but according to this clip, they do sometimes choose the preamp for the colour it adds. Btw, just as I suspected, I find it difficult to hear any substantial difference between these four mics - they all sound very good to me. It looks like they had all mics mounted simultaneously - maybe it would have been better if they had mounted them one at a time, in EXACTLY the same positions, but the fact that they all sound so similar probably means a position change of a couple of inches or so isn't going to matter much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLpNUrwAk-k

EDIT: I think Mic D seems to lack a bit of bass compared to the others.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (12-09-2016 22:06)

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

Nice video of a nice test. Thanks for posting that.

Two interesting articles on preamps and pianos from Sound On Sound:

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pick-preamp

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/preamp-post-mortem

The second article is a follow-up on the first. They used a Disklavier for the test, to make sure that the performance was not a variable. Comes to the conclusion that we might both fear and expect: There were differences, but there was disagreement about the degree of difference and how to describe the differences. Ah, music...

In the real world, confusing things a bit more, is that some mics have their own preamps, and tubes are sometimes varied by the manufacturers and by users\studios, since they can be swapped out.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (13-09-2016 00:33)

Reply by skip

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Re: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

Somehow I suspect that the most important factors are the piano itself, the room it's in, and the mic positions.  The small amount of bass deficiency I think I can hear in Mic D could be easily corrected with EQ I think. (I did prefer the warmer tone of the other three mics)  Btw, at least that mic shootout clip I posted does eliminate variations in player performance, because they obviously recorded all mics simultaneously.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (13-09-2016 01:35)

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

skip wrote:

Somehow I suspect that the most important factors are the piano itself, the room it's in, and the mic positions.  The small amount of bass deficiency I think I can hear in Mic D could be easily corrected with EQ I think. (I did prefer the warmer tone of the other three mics)  Btw, at least that mic shootout clip I posted does eliminate variations in player performance, because they obviously recorded all mics simultaneously.

Greg.

Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

I ran across this page today--a site dedicated to compaing mic positions. Has two sets of piano files, including a grand and an upright. Shows pictures and a labelled diagram of each configuration. A serious experiment. Scroll about a third of the way down to see the links to the piano files. Over 90 recordings demonstrating the sound of each arrangement. Have I listened to them all, yet? Well, no, but I will:

http://www.cambridge-mt.com/rs-lmp.htm

Last edited by Jake Johnson (13-09-2016 02:48)

Reply by skip

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Re: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

Jake Johnson wrote:

Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

When you said this:

(Not so subtle subtext: It would be nice to have their better mics modelled for Pianoteq, if we could get this sound, particularly in the midrange. Intimate, with that nice rustle....)

this implied to me that you thought that the reason Pianoteq does not sound like those recordings of the Shure mics is simply that Pianoteq has not yet modelled those mics. I took issue with that. I think the reason Pianoteq does not sound like those recordings has little to do with Pianoteq's mic modelling, and everything to do with Pianoteq's piano modelling.

Thanks for the other link.

Greg.

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Close-mic, brief piano recordings from Shure Inc

I wrote to Shure, asking about the piano. Here is the response:

I spoke with the engineer from our in house studio and he said it was an 1891 Steinway Model A piano.  The board is a Digidesign board into a Pro Tools.  As far as external pre-amps go, he didn't specify, so I'm assuming it was the pre's that are stock on the Digidesign board.

Chris Siuty
Shure Inc