Topic: Do instrument packs add content ?

Probably sounds like an odd question - "Of course it does, it adds new instruments ... duh !" but to qualify - Are the instrument packs just presets [albeit carefully crafted ones!] for Pianoteq, or do they actually add additional physical modelling information to the base programme? If I were to spend ages tweaking *every* parameter on the standard preset D4 piano (for example) could I turn it into a Marimba, or as I've not got the Xylo pack I'd be missing the required resonator for such a tweak to be possible ?

The main reason I ask is I've recently bought a great Max4Live device (TIP - http://k-devices.com/products/tip/ ) which allows you to literally tweak *every* parameter in just one click which creates really wild physical sounding beasts. If I were to buy additional instruments would it allow me to increase the sonic palette even further with additional variables granted by these instrument models ?

Last edited by mcbpete (10-06-2016 15:49)

Re: Do instrument packs add content ?

They actually add different models to Pianoteq. And no, you cannot tweak D4 to a marimba - models are essentially different. So, a marimba model doesn't add anything to other piano models, like D4, K2 or Blüthner - it stands on its own.

Last edited by EvilDragon (10-06-2016 16:08)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Do instrument packs add content ?

Interesting, so each instrument has it's own unique physical modelling system ? Do we know exactly how one model differs from another in the core Pianoteq simulation - does it have different exciters, resonators, presumably definitely has different acoustic properties in terms of case reverberation etc... Just really curious as to what each instrument model actually does in terms of the variables of physical modelling

Last edited by mcbpete (10-06-2016 16:41)

Re: Do instrument packs add content ?

mcbpete wrote:

Interesting, so each instrument has it's own unique physical modelling system ? Do we know exactly how one model differs from another in the core Pianoteq simulation - does it have different exciters, resonators, presumably definitely has different acoustic properties in terms of case reverberation etc... Just really curious as to what each instrument model actually does in terms of the variables of physical modelling

Modartt produces its own sample library of a given piano, then uses that to 'profile' the instrument's basic properties you described (strings, cabinet, frame, soundboard impedance).
I'm not sure if the strings are defined in terms of real physical parameters or simply precalculated oscillators that reflect the "heart" of the instrument. What I can say for the pianos,
and some other instruments like the harp, harpsichords, and others:

Each string has a longitudinal mode that's set to a certain pitch at the instrument's real string length. On smaller pianos it is typically sharper by 1 to 2 semitones in the bass bridge compared to a concert grand, but the string lengths are much shorter and thicker. Thus, it's possible to achieve a much lower-pitched longitudinal mode than a real piano could ever produce, since the model is based off of the scale design of the original instrument, which does not change as one changes the string length. Even adding only one meter to the D4's case length (string length) puts B-1's longitudinal mode a semitone LOWER than the Bosendorfer Imperial 290's low B! The Klavins 370, having thinner and longer strings, keeps relatively typical pitches for its longitudinal modes, which lie around either dominant 27ths or perfect 29ths, give or take a few cents.

The bass bridge most prominently highlights these changes, but the plain wire section is more subtle, perhaps more annoying. Try maxing the string length on the CP-80. Notice how the middle sounds a little sour? That's the L-mode rearing its ugly head.

Here's how a long piano sounds like. The example is the Alexander Stadium Grand, case length 570cm, all plain wire.


Oh, and all that above does not include the precomputed hammer samples for each instrument!

Last edited by lowendtheory (10-06-2016 21:21)

Re: Do instrument packs add content ?

Been playing around a bit further with this generating random presets on each instrument. Definitely seems like the exciter is different in each case (thing that makes the initial sound) - Loading the Church Bells preset and randomising things creates all sorts of bell-like instruments, a harp preset creates all sort of plucked karplus-strong type plucked strings. So yeah wondering if the main difference between the instruments is mainly just the initial impulse sound.... which then lead me to a thought - If it was possible to import different impulses, you could then create a pianoteq of 'things: A whacked drum modulated by the pianoteq acoustic model, an african thumb piano that's metres long, a non-cruel Katzenklavier !

Last edited by mcbpete (11-06-2016 21:35)

Re: Do instrument packs add content ?

mcbpete wrote:

Probably sounds like an odd question - "Of course it does, it adds new instruments ... duh !" but to qualify - Are the instrument packs just presets [albeit carefully crafted ones!] for Pianoteq, or do they actually add additional physical modelling information to the base programme? If I were to spend ages tweaking *every* parameter on the standard preset D4 piano (for example) could I turn it into a Marimba, or as I've not got the Xylo pack I'd be missing the required resonator for such a tweak to be possible ?

The main reason I ask is I've recently bought a great Max4Live device (TIP - http://k-devices.com/products/tip/ ) which allows you to literally tweak *every* parameter in just one click which creates really wild physical sounding beasts. If I were to buy additional instruments would it allow me to increase the sonic palette even further with additional variables granted by these instrument models ?

That Max4Live looks like an interesting programme.

I "suppose" one could just pick a "target instrument" e.g. a Fazzie piano and match it - - If one could get their hands on a Fazzie for long enough to...
Oh, that would be SAMPLING.
OK, so starting from the sample library that you have produced/recorded.
Analysis -> Synthesis 
The synthesis phase arguably is "Modeling".

After that add whatever effects you want.

Whether or not Modartt picks apart the SOUND of instruments isn't completely clear (to ME).
I have seen suggestions that it is all "bottom up" calculations based on the physics of the way that strings and boards vibrate, but I suspect that at some point they match the theoretical instrument to the physical instrument.