Topic by dklein

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  • dklein
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Topic: Simulating the Player's Perspective - 'Wet' versus 'Dry' sound mixing

This is the second of three topics that I wanted to ask about, based on issues that have come up with my installing a PNOscan II MIDI sensor rail from QRS and a stop rail into my 1885 upright Steinway "F" which I bought from Craigslist.  As noted before, with a working antique acoustic upright piano, I am trying to tailor the controls and sound output from the piano working with Pianoteq so that there is as little as possible difference between playing the acoustic piano as compared to playing one of the modelled pianos, from the player's touch response and hearing perspective.  (So far, I have fooled a few non-piano players, but I haven't convinced any real piano players!  It's not that I'm looking to deceive anybody, but just that the ultimate modelled piano should sound so real that the player should not be able to discriminate whether she or he is listening to the real thing or the modelled thing.)

2) "Wet" versus "Dry" sound outputs – Certainly, the reason that Pianoteq puts controls such as reverberation, delay, and compression in place in the "Effects" section of the program is to create a "wet" sound that better simulates that of a real piano.  In my case, where I am trying to create the sound of a real piano from the player's perspective, not on a recording, but 'live' ( while the player is at the keyboard -- I have monitor speakers facing upwards towards the ceiling and smaller speakers facing the wall behind my upright piano, which means that my acoustic environment will create some of its own reverb and delay).  I have been told that that I still need to add some reverb and delay to the synthesized sound in order to appear realistic (my 'piano' 's electronic sound is from speakers outside the case of the real piano, even if by facing upwards and behind the real piano they do add some of their own reverb and/or delay).  Most of the time I end up with too muddy an effect, or too little an effect -- I clearly don't have the recipe for the 'special sauce' . 

Does anybody have any useful experience and/or guidelines on simulating the real piano from the player's perspective with respect to these additional "mixing" controls?

Steinway project address:   https://goo.gl/photos/mZ6UywoFz79DXAMr9

- David

Reply by DonSmith

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Re: Simulating the Player's Perspective - 'Wet' versus 'Dry' sound mixing

To be very basic and not so technical, try placing your speakers on your Keyboard in a way that you can feel the vibrations of the sound going through it.
I've got a Korg Sp-170S with built-in sounds. Pianoteq sounds better than the built-in sounds, but there's something nice about the vibrations from the internal speakers.

Reply by dklein

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Re: Simulating the Player's Perspective - 'Wet' versus 'Dry' sound mixing

Hey, maybe that's a reason in itself to acquire or make a transducer that's similar to those that Yamaha uses for its 'Transacoustic Pianos', but with the goal of NOT making audible sounds but just tactile sensations for the player (and using this in addition to whatever speaker system is employed).

David

- David

Reply by GRB

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Re: Simulating the Player's Perspective - 'Wet' versus 'Dry' sound mixing

I've often thought digital pianos should have a large leaf spring mounted under the keybed that is vibrated by a speaker magnet.

Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Reply by geert

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Re: Simulating the Player's Perspective - 'Wet' versus 'Dry' sound mixing

Using different speakers located differently and feeding them with exactly the same signal, creates a very uneven soundscape, simply due to the fact that you abuse one of the primary goals of the better loudspeaker manufacturers: equal phase.....

There should at least be phase compensation ( delay) between those speakers. Otherwise this setup  creates peaks and cancellations.......

convolution reverb is only useful to make headphones playing more realistic, as in thatsituation you do not have the natural reflections of the room involved.

Your acoustic piano also does not have reverb.......

The problem of speaker location is of course, if you want the sound convincing from the player,s  position, or if you want it to be good for the other listeners in the room.

For the player,s perspective a true stereo  orientation and sitting in the sweet spot is essential.

For a listener,s perspective, one could think of omnidirectional speakers.......these have the additional benefit of creating less standing waves ( caused by the room dimensions)......