Topic: Simulating the player's perspective – Volume, Dynamics, and Velocity

This is the first of three topics that I wanted to ask about, based on issues that have come up with my installing a PNOscan II MIDI sensor rail from QRS and a stop rail into my 1885 upright Steinway "F" which I bought from Craigslist. I have posted the project here before, but I will repost the address to the Google photo album so you can understand what I've been trying to do. Basically, with a working antique acoustic upright piano, I am trying to tailor the controls and sound output from the piano working with Pianoteq so that there is as little as possible difference between playing the acoustic piano as compared to playing one of the modelled pianos, from the player's touch response and hearing perspective.  (So far, I have fooled a few non-piano players, but I haven't convinced any real piano players!  It's not that I'm looking to deceive anybody, but just that the ultimate modelled piano should sound so real that the player should not be able to discriminate whether she or he is listening to the real thing or the modeled thing.)

Here is my Steinway project photo album address:   https://goo.gl/photos/mZ6UywoFz79DXAMr9


1)  The first of three topics that I want to post is with respect to how do the Volume, Dynamics, and Velocity controls interact?

These three controls have me very confused, especially as other programs such as Native Instrument's Kontakt only have a volume and a velocity curve, without separate dynamics. If I understand the set up correctly, the volume control sets the amplification and the velocity curve allows you to map the response of signal to volume.

The VOLUME control in Pianoteq appears to do the same thing as the volume control in Native Instruments' Kontakt.  Very similar to a volume knob on a preamplifier, and nothing else.

The VELOCITY curve in Pianoteq at first appears to do the same thing as it does in Kontakt but it does not. On the x-axis is the MIDI input velocity, from 0 to 127. The y-axis is marked in musical volume from ppp to fortissimo, but it is not really do that. It does appear to change the tone of the note as it is struck, as notes on a real piano which are hit with higher velocity have a "sharper" characteristic to them. Also, this curve does appear to have some affect on volume.

It is the DYNAMICS control that confuses me. The pop-up information tab shows that it controls loudness between pianissimo and fortissimo, but as I play with it it seems as if it is almost another type of curve control similar to the velocity control. In fact, I have made different velocity controls to match with different dynamics controls. If I want to use the entire range of dynamics, I have to be a bit less aggressive with my velocity curve, and vice versa.

On my own electronic piano set up, it is difficult to make a good velocity curve that uses all the values up to fortissimo, as that sounds too sharp and too loud to simulate my own acoustic piano. Perhaps it's more the fault of the MIDI sensor strip, which cannot differentiate between really, really fast and really, really, really, really fast, as that's where an acoustic piano starts getting that type of volume response.

For my own piano, I know that the MIDI signal coming to the computer out of my QRS PNOscan II MIDI strip needs a curve attached to it, "blunting" the high-end, otherwise the electronic piano sounds too "hot" as the velocities increase.

Also, at low velocities, there should probably be a threshold applied, as in a real piano there is a velocity of keystroke below which the hammer does not get "thrown" all the way to the strings – below this threshold you can depress the key slowly and get no sound but just leave the damper open.

Please tell me what you girls and guys have done with respect to your own instruments, and how to make the most out of these controls, especially if you are using MIDI output and Pianoteq on a real piano, setting it up so that all the different electronic model pianos will play with similar dynamics to your own acoustic piano.

- David

Sarasota, Florida

- David

Re: Simulating the player's perspective – Volume, Dynamics, and Velocity

I have scratched my head over this as well...can anyone help?

Re: Simulating the player's perspective – Volume, Dynamics, and Velocity

In short:

The VELOCITY curve modifies the Note On value (velocity) sent by your keyboard.
The default straight line [0, 127; 0, 127]  won't change anything of course.
Now a simple example: if you use Velocity = [0, 63, 127; 0, 79, 127] , then, when your keyboard sends velocity 63, Pianoteq transforms it internally and will play the note as if it was receiving velocity 79 (hence producing the same sound as with the default Velocity when keyboard sends velocity 79).

The DYNAMICS control will change only the volume, not the timbre. If set to 0, all notes are played at the same volume, but with a different timbre from lowest to highest velocity. If set to 100 dB, the volume at the lowest audible velocity will be 100 dB below the volume at the highest velocity.

Re: Simulating the player's perspective – Volume, Dynamics, and Velocity

Hi dklein,

I'm interested as well in get a rapresentative output of response curve and dynamics from PT compared to a real piano!!!

I own a Yamaha P121 Silent piano and since I live in a flat I cannot use it for too much time continuosly w/o creating problems with neighbours... And on the other side, using it in silent mode with MIDI & PT does not help me in learning due to the fact it seems more easy to control the sound and dynamics...

So, when I move back from Silent to real I need to re-calibrate my fingers.... :-(  (This happen also using the YAMAHA internal sound generator, it's not a problem of PT :-))


All of this pushed me to think a way to "calibrate" PT to get the same response and it seems the same you would like to get!

Unfortunately I moved out from the house where I have the piano and don't have so much time now to implement what I planned which briefly can be summarized in:

1) Record with a DAW the sound (waveform) of a certain piano key while recording also the midi value trying to map the entire velocity range from ppp to fff (in some steps, not all the 127 values!!!) repeating the same velocity several time to avarage the response.

2) Correlate some indicator (attack peak value / RMS / etc) with MIDI value building up the velocity/sound curve.

3) Find the dynamic range with ratio b/w fff and ppp sound levels.

4) Replicate the first 2 points but then using PT (recording the wave file and perform the same analysis).

5) Match the piano and PT response acting on MIDI velocity/dynamics controls comparing the audio outputs.


This should be repeated for each keys or at list some of them trying to fit the complete keyboard range. Since I own just the Stage version I can just apply an avarage setting...


Said that, I hope to be able to apply soon this procedure letting you know about the details and result!

Comments&suggestion are welcome! :-)

_Gabriele
Como, Italy


P.S. Thank you Philippe for explaining velocity and dynamics controls effect!

Re: Simulating the player's perspective – Volume, Dynamics, and Velocity

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

The DYNAMICS control will change only the volume, not the timbre. If set to 0, all notes are played at the same volume, but with a different timbre from lowest to highest velocity. If set to 100 dB, the volume at the lowest audible velocity will be 100 dB below the volume at the highest velocity.

Hi Philippe,
I haven't got any problem to understand the Volume control and the Note On (Velocity) curve. They seem rather straight forward. I am still confused about the dynamics control. I understand the timbre of sound is something we get while playing ppp and fff, that is sound can be duller or more "metalic", respectively. Is DYNAMICS multiplicative? When I increase dB, does it change the range between quietest and loudest sound or does it change only "offset" but the range between remains the same?

Thanks

Re: Simulating the player's perspective – Volume, Dynamics, and Velocity

Celdor wrote:

Is DYNAMICS multiplicative? When I increase dB, does it change the range between quietest and loudest sound or does it change only "offset" but the range between remains the same?

Thanks

It's the first part of your 'or': when you increase dB, it changes the range between quietest and loudest sound. Range in dB = value of the Dynamics parameter.