Topic: Latency Issues

Hi Everyone,

I've read through several posts on latency (lag) issues, but none have helped me.

My computer is a Surface Pro 4, M3. Maybe it is due to the M3 version, I'm not sure. But, it does not matter if I use Windows Audio or Exclusive mode, Direct Sound or ASIO, the same lag is there between my Roland FP-7 and my SP 4.

Can't update drivers (I think) as the SP 4 is brand new. I do have another more powerful computer, but getting my very heavy FP-7 to it, is a back breaking option, up many stairs.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Rob

PS: When I first heard about ASIO, I was worried, because in Australia ASIO is this mob, http://www.asio.gov.au/ They are good organisation to stay clear of.

Re: Latency Issues

The latency with audio on my Surface Pro 3 and using ASIO was playable but not great. The only thing I could do to get better results was use a usb soundcard.

Re: Latency Issues

Hi Mooks,

Thanks for this. I looked at a usb sound card, but as I have only one usb outlet, it would mean buying an adaptor of some sort, so I can plug in the sound card and my digital piano, and I've spent so much money lately on tech, I'm not willing to go down that path. It would be great to be able to hear Pianoteq live, but I have to recorded it and then play through a good sound system. At the moment, I Pianoteq will not work through my headphones, it simply overrides the computer setting as pushes the sound through the speakers on my SP 4.

I'll keep searching for a cost effective solution.

Thanks again

Re: Latency Issues

Latency is a direct result of the audio interface and the drivers coupled, less so, with the power of your computer. Assuming Windows, you need an audio interface that supports ASIO with their own drivers. RME, MOTU, Lynx and others offer low latency interfaces. If you are using the onboard sound of your motherboard, you "might" be able to use ASIO4ALL as an alternative. No where near the best solution but sometimes workable.  If you want the lowest latency my suggestion is RME or Lynx followed closely by MOTU.

SteveO

Re: Latency Issues

Computing power (i.e., CPU speed, flops) definitely affects latency if you're on a relatively slow machine. I don't think today's tablet PCs are quite up to the job of satisfactorily running Pianoteq. Reducing internal sampling rate and polyphony are obvious options to ease the load on the CPU. Also make sure the sound card / driver's internal/preferred sample rate matches Pianoteq's output rate (try 44.1 and 48kHz and see which one performs better). You may also try using just half that rate for Pianoteq's output. And preferably you'll want Pianoteq's output sample rate to be an integer multiple of its internal sampling rate (e.g, for 44.1kHz output, use 44.1, 22.05 or 11.025kHz internal; 22.05 will still sound ok, 11.025 not so great, but it may be worth it for better playability).

Some instruments/presets are likely to be more CPU intensive than others. If you're willing to reduce or give up sympathetic and duplex scale resonances that should speed things up. If I switch them off (push the sliders all the way to the left) the CPU load drops to roughly one third to half, so this definitely helps a lot. (But from what I can see, if they are anything greater than 0, the amount of resonance seems to make little or no difference.) Setting the unison width to zero also seems to result in significant speed-up. There may be other parameters you can tweak to reduce the load on the CPU. Basically anything that simplifies the physical model will result in fewer calculations needed to generate the sound. You're giving up realism for speed of execution.

PS. Funny comment about ASIO. Yeah, you don't want those guys knocking on your door.

Last edited by SteveLy (23-01-2016 17:36)
3/2 = 5

Re: Latency Issues

I had similar issues with a Surface Pro4.  I could not fix my latency by any combination of Surface, Windows, or Pianoteq adjustments.

At the advice of Didier Martini on this forum, I bought a Steinberg UR-22 Mk II.  It completely cured my latency issues, gave me a sturdier speaker output than the mini phone jack on the opposite side of the USB and power on the Surface, and gave me an easily turntable volume knob on the from of the Steinberg.  And it comes with Cubase AI.

Totally worthwhile.

In the photo, the Steinberg unit is on the top right of the piano:

https://goo.gl/photos/o97pVdM6ZgT179jK6

- David

Re: Latency Issues

Hi dklein,

Thanks for this.

How does the audio and USB hook up work with this device between your digital piano and PTQ?

Cheers

Rob

Re: Latency Issues

I have my keyboard (the piano with QRS Sensor Rail) plugged into the MIDI ports on the back of the UR22.  My monitor speakers are also plugged into the UR22 by 1/4" phone plugs.  Then the UR22 plugs into the Surface by USB.  You can optionally add headphones and/or a microphone and/or an electric guitar to the front of the UR22.

That's it.  Simple, and it works.

- David

Re: Latency Issues

Hi dklein,

Thank you for this. Sounds simple. I will look into this product.

Cheers

rob

Re: Latency Issues

That's good to know as I just ordered a surface pro 4 for travel practice with Pianoteq (I think I will go for the Acuna 73 as the masterkeyboard, which seems like the best action/weight/size/price compromise). I already have the Steinberg interface for my home PC and it is excellent...(USD powered as well)...

Re: Latency Issues

Here is a database of sorts with comparisons between various interfaces.. If you want the lowest possible latency it's RME, or MOTU... http://www.dawbench.com/audio-int-lowlatency2.htm

SteveO

Re: Latency Issues

fntms wrote:

That's good to know as I just ordered a surface pro 4 for travel practice with Pianoteq (I think I will go for the Acuna 73 as the masterkeyboard, which seems like the best action/weight/size/price compromise). I already have the Steinberg interface for my home PC and it is excellent...(USD powered as well)...

if you have an i-CPU you should be fine with Pianoteq in standalone anyways.
on my SP3 /Win10 / i5 / 8 GB Pianoteq is quite playable (128 samples audio buffer, 64 voices) using the on-board soundcard. Will have a look at the UR 22MKII myself, however. For higher samplerates and for using it in a VST environment.

Best

Last edited by steff3 (30-01-2016 06:28)

Re: Latency Issues

steff3 wrote:
fntms wrote:

That's good to know as I just ordered a surface pro 4 for travel practice with Pianoteq (I think I will go for the Acuna 73 as the masterkeyboard, which seems like the best action/weight/size/price compromise). I already have the Steinberg interface for my home PC and it is excellent...(USD powered as well)...

if you have an i-CPU you should be fine with Pianoteq in standalone anyways.
on my SP3 /Win10 / i5 / 8 GB Pianoteq is quite playable (128 samples audio buffer, 64 voices) using the on-board soundcard. Will have a look at the UR 22MKII myself, however. For higher samplerates and for using it in a VST environment.

Best

Update: Pianoteq is unfortunately not usable for classical 'romantic' music (with lots of pedalling and voices) on my surface 4 with i5 , too many drop outs (with 'auto pessimistic' voices and up to 256 samples buffer)...(performance factor is 27 max after tweaking and you can't tweak a lot).
Back to samples then ...(vintage D works fine and has a beautiful sound, with a nicer attack overall, but perhaps it's a little boring when coming from pianoteq).

Last edited by fntms (24-04-2016 08:43)

Re: Latency Issues

Try 64 voices, not auto. Also try lowering the sample rate a bit.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Latency Issues

@fntms Pianoteq, OS/soundcard-drivers can be tweaked to work well with Core 2 Duo systems, and, with some reasonable compromises, even on a Pentium M laptop, so you should have no trouble on an i5. (I presume so anyway; not sure about "Surface" devices. They're all tablets I gather..?)

I agree with EvilDragon on not using the auto polyphony settings: "pessimistic" is not pessimistic enough. Just manually tweak the settings and "torture test" them as you go (give them a tough workout: lots of pedal and notes per minute). Once your OS and sound card are optimally configured, polyphony and sample rates are the main things to play with. Note that for Ptq sample rate you have internal and output. Sometimes it's beneficial to have output < internal but it's usually better if these are the same. Also note my earlier comments about having compatible sample rates from Ptq internal through Ptq output to sound card native.

Last edited by SteveLy (24-04-2016 09:54)
3/2 = 5

Re: Latency Issues

I remembered something I had to do on my Surface Pro 3 to fix audio glitches. I assume SP4 is the same. These devices have advanced power management schemes, and in the Control Panel -> Power Options, I could only see a "Balanced" scheme, and no "High Performance" option as I would usually use for audio applications. But the balanced scheme throttles the CPU. You could see the CPU frequency constantly changing in the Pianoteq -> Options -> Perf screen.

After some messing around, I found a way to force the SP3 into solid high performance using the "powercfg" command. You can try this by running (Windows + R) the following command: "powercfg /s SCHEME_MIN" (this means minimum power management, ie max power)

You should now see a "High Performance" option in the Power Options that should be selected as the current scheme. The CPU frequency in Pianoteq should be constant.

My performance factors:
Balanced = 23
High Performance = 39

Unfortunately, this power option doesn't show up if you select Balanced again. It is automatically hidden! The way round this is to duplicate the scheme as a custom one, but that involves a bunch more (ugly) powercfg commands. Try the above first, and let us know if it works.

Interestingly, it seems to be the CPU switching that caused the glitches more than the actual power level. With further experimentation, I was able to create a power scheme that throttled the CPU to a constant 50% power, and it worked fine. This could be useful if you're running on batteries and want to prolong the life.

Re: Latency Issues

Yep, that's also quite an important thing. Power management sucks the power (sic) from the CPU to conserve battery life. But we want our Pianoteq to get all the juice it can have - so setting things to High Performance makes a lot of sense (especially if you connect your SP to a charger and use it like that).

Hard work and guts!

Re: Latency Issues

Thanks all for the suggestions.

I set the max voices to 64 and can now practice my Scriabin preludes with quasi constant pedal and lots of leaps without any noticeable cuts. It's strange that I never seem to get more than 30 voices though, whatever the setting (even in 'auto pessimistic'), but the max is what seems to count for drop outs...
I did have to turn off 'cpu surcharge detection' to avoid cuts totally though. Let the thing burn down if it must!

On my tablet SP4 the CPU speed is constant in 'perf' (at 2390mhz), so I think I will not try to tweak this. There is an "eco' mode which I always switch off when playing, perhaps that's enough. There are very few options anyway in 'power management' that look useful in windows 10 (I found nothing on cpu power).

Re: Latency Issues

Ah, if you see a constant 2390mhz CPU, it sounds OK. Maybe they made it smarter on the SP4. I also forgot to mention that I am running Windows 8, so 10 may differ.

And yes, the power options do seem to have been deliberately hidden on Surface Pro, probably for good reasons, so it doesn't look like you have much control. But the "powercfg" tool gives you full control of the underlying system.