Topic: Scarlatti, 14 times

I prepared these for another discussion on another forum, but perhaps they're of interest here too: 14 different versions of a fragment of the Sonata Kk13 by Domenico Scarlatti.

Galaxy VintageD (Steinway, sampled)
.
QL Pianos Steinway / Close-Player (Steinway, sampled)
.
QL Pianos Steinway / Player-Room (Steinway, sampled)
.
ImperfectSamples Fazioli (Fazioli, sampled)
.
TrueKeys American (Steinway, sampled)
.
TrueKeys German (Bechstein, sampled)
.
TrueKeys Ravenscroft 275  (Ravenscroft, sampled)
.
XSample Steinway. (Steinway, sampled)
.
Alicia's Keys (Yamaha, sampled)
.
OrangeTree Rosewood (Yamaha, sampled)
.
SonicCouture The Hammersmith (Steinway, sampled)
.
Chocolate Audio Steinway (Steinway, sampled)
.
Pianoteq ModelB (Steinway, modeled)
.
Synthogy Ivory AmericanD (Steinway, sampled)
.

I put the one I like best first. The others are in random order.

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Last edited by Piet De Ridder (27-03-2016 14:50)

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

These types of comparison should always be displayed as a blind-test.  Seeing the name of the product will always biase people.

Last edited by Mossy (27-03-2016 14:43)

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

I'm just presenting these for what they're worth, Mossy. Just so that people can hear how all these different virtual pianos cope with the material.

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Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Hi, very nice indeed. As a matter of taste, to me two grands I like best from the recordings: Galaxy D and Model B ! Both are sounding most natural and coherent to me.

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

None are bad in my opinion.  As for which sounds best, it seems to be similar to how much seasoning makes a steak taste best.  There are subtle differences but the underlying material is the same.  Many times it seems to be just a question of the perceived ambiance.  All that said, I'm just comparing listening on the internal speakers of a $200.00 Asus laptop, so there could be subtleties I'm missing.

Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Vintage D is amazing! It's actually an old and not so big sampled library, but it still one of my favorite piano plugin.

Last edited by Ross (28-03-2016 17:18)
Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Nice job Piet !

But you forgot Roland V-piano and Roland Supernatural piano.

Interesting that even between only samplers we can hear that some are more clear than others, and some have just a little bit of muffed sound. One critic to older versions of pianoteq was about some muffed sound, but the actual version it's more clear than many sampled pianos.

Last edited by Beto-Music (29-03-2016 16:30)

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Beto-Music wrote:

Nice job Piet !

But you forgot Roland V-piano and Roland Supernatural piano.

It must cost quite a bit to have this collection.

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Well, Piet already have Roland V-piano.

DonSmith wrote:
Beto-Music wrote:

Nice job Piet !

But you forgot Roland V-piano and Roland Supernatural piano.

It must cost quite a bit to have this collection.

Last edited by Beto-Music (30-03-2016 14:54)

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Thank-you posting these mp3's, Piet. They are a great addition to the ongoing struggle to emulate a piano. I must say, however, that I wish that an adagio or andante passage had been used for the comparison. Just to let the notes ring out and to hear them individually and together decaying for a longer time.

But, yes, these recordings are wonderful. Thanks again for posting them.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (30-03-2016 05:33)

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Jake,

You’re absolutely right, this particular fragment only tells us something about just a small handful of aspects of a piano sound — the character and the quality of the sustains being, regrettably, NOT among them — but this little experient was only begun following a discussion about the Hammersmith (which I don’t like) and my original objective was to illustrate that despite its many velocity layers, it has much less dynamic timbral differentiation than, say, the VintageD. (As I think this comparison clearly shows.)

And after I had rendered the piece with the Hammersmith and the VintageD, I began thinking that it wouldn’t perhaps be a complete waste of time to try it out with a few other libraries as well.
So, it's perhaps good to keep in mind that dynamic colour/articulation is the main (and almost only) point of focus here.

A similar test with a more varied piano part that includes sustains, pedal work, etc. would, I agree, tell a more complete story.

_

Last edited by Piet De Ridder (30-03-2016 08:17)

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

It's impressive, Modartt is nice to the point to allow deep crits (constructive critics) in their own forum.

Piet, maybe you should participate somehow in pre-beta. Your ears and focus (find the "epicenter" of the matter) worth a lot.

I have the feeling Modartt could add more variances using tricks, like scripts do, but they prefer reach such things by direct mathematical emulation in orther to the variation be a result of the physical virtual stream of events.

For example (my guess), they could add some relative simple algorythm to add randow variance in some portion of the partials during some instant of the key strike. But if they had being use such tricks since version 1 or 2, they wouldn't had reached the real refinement of today in the core physical modeled itself.  They prefer to create details and variances that comes as result of the the physical interaction of the virtual piano elements. That pushs them to the search of real perfectionism.

Last edited by Beto-Music (30-03-2016 14:55)

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Piet usually IS a part of the beta team, and his input is greatly valued there, too.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

I know. He is also responsible for many creative mp3 demos, most composed by hin I believe, on pianoteq site.

I refered about a pre-beta, and not the nusual beta, something beofre the beta testing.

EvilDragon wrote:

Piet usually IS a part of the beta team, and his input is greatly valued there, too.

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Piet De Ridder wrote:

Jake,
[...]and my original objective was to illustrate that despite its many velocity layers, it has much less dynamic timbral differentiation than, say, the VintageD. [...]

_

Ah, I see and hear, now. Thank-you for the explanation.

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Piet De Ridder wrote:

I put the one I like best first.

VintageD used to be my favorite as well, and in this trial I prefer it to the ModelB.
The ModelB recording sounds bad at 0:50, the low notes seem kind of distorted: I wonder if it's a problem with the recording or this is how it sounds (I don't own it).

I recently tried the VintageD again, but its lack of repedaling support makes it almost unusable to me: probably because I'm a bad player and often press the pedal too late. ;-)
Tough, I do it deliberately in at least one song: after a progression with pedal down and lots of resonances, I end with a high note, then quickly release and repress the pedal while I hold that key. I like the effect it creates with pianoteq.

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

alessandro wrote:
Piet De Ridder wrote:

I put the one I like best first.

VintageD used to be my favorite as well, and in this trial I prefer it to the ModelB.
The ModelB recording sounds bad at 0:50, the low notes seem kind of distorted: I wonder if it's a problem with the recording or this is how it sounds (I don't own it).

I recently tried the VintageD again, but its lack of repedaling support makes it almost unusable to me: probably because I'm a bad player and often press the pedal too late. ;-)
Tough, I do it deliberately in at least one song: after a progression with pedal down and lots of resonances, I end with a high note, then quickly release and repress the pedal while I hold that key. I like the effect it creates with pianoteq.

Vintage D has repedalling. You just have to click the feature under the articulation tab. It's one of the most complete script ever created for pianos. O.o"

http://www.galaxy-instruments.com/images/vd_interface%402x.png

Last edited by Chopin87 (31-03-2016 12:05)
"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Chopin87 wrote:

Vintage D has repedalling. You just have to click the feature under the articulation tab.

Good to know! I wonder why it wasn't enabled by default. Thanks!

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

I do not own the Vintage D, but in the below demo, I seem to hear that the pitch of the hammer strike, particulalry in the right hand, is harmonious with the pitches of the notes. If that makes sense. In other words, the note seems to emerge with the hammer strike. The hammer seems to "pop" the note out, and the hammer strike blends with, is at times indistinct from the pitch of the note.

I'm not sure that this could be done intentionally on a piano--to calibrate the pitch of the hammer strike to the lower partials of each note. That would require calibrating the weight of the shanks, voicing each hammer, and much more, to each note. Could it instead be the older tube equipment that is helping to eliminate the crisper sound of the hammer blow, so the notes seem to pop out so cleanly? The tube mics and Neve console?

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Interresting. With no pedal, all the pianos are goods. For QL piano I think the choice of Bechstein is better for this sonate.
The Vintage D is really good but I think if it's an another piano you heard in first, is this another piano you talk in all the pots.

(sorry for my english).

Re: Scarlatti, 14 times

Piet De Ridder wrote:

14 different versions of a fragment of the Sonata Kk13 by Domenico Scarlatti.

Could you please provide the MIDI file you used?
thank you