Topic: Advice on replacing my CA97

Hi all,

It's been a year since I'm a happy CA97 user.

I had to move it once cause I changed my city, it was quite a hassle as I had to hire people to get it downstairs, "fragile" transport, of course looked for a flat with a lift big enough to fit it in, and again hire people to get it to my place etc. Not a nice experience.

Now I'm most likely to move again and I'm afraid the same story will repeat itself, so I put it up for sale and now it seems I have a serious buyer around here.

I'd like to get something else instead, but not quite sure what. I've got the full bundle of PTQ5 pro for more than a year now and I'm loving it more and more (currently through my CA97 speakers), so I thought a nice MIDI controller should do the job for now since I also own a couple nice monitors with their stands.

I'm aware of the VPC as Kawai's flagship in this area but I'm not confortable with the idea of downgrading the keybed action within the same brand (psycho factor), so I started thinking of another alternatives like the SL88 Grand (quite convincing on paper), the Roland A88 (very good reviews for little money), or even some stage pianos like the Casio PX560, Roland RD800 or Nord Piano 3 (not really interested on sounds, but rather on key action and nice integration with PTQ). I'm not mentioning all brands here but I've been researching quite a lot on the specifications/price side.

I'm pretty flexible since I'm almost sure I wont get anything as nice as the GF2, so at this point price/quality ratio will be considerably regarded.

Any comments, experiences or advices other than "go try yourself" will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long text.

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Please give us some report about how pianoteq sound connected to Kawai CA97, since this model uses a real piano soundboard as a speaker.  :-)

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Some people say it's not a good idea to use a soundboard because it would limite then soundboard charact to a fixed element, even if you change settings in pianoteq. But I disagree, because the soubndboard in this case it's like a speaker and will reproduce what it have to reproduce.

CA97 have extra speakers (conventional) to help the frequencies that the soundbaord alone can't handle well.

Had you tested the pianoteq Steinway-B with CA97?

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

The GF2 has not made it to any stage models yet. If you're willing to wait a bit I'm sure it will. Meanwhile perhaps the MP11 is the closest you're going to get in a more portable (though still quite heavy) package. Pretty much anything else you can get will not be up to that level.

You mention the PX-560. If you're strictly only after a controller for Pianoteq you might as well go for one of the less expensive models (PX-160 being the least expensive, and has the same KB; I've compared it with the PX-760 and PX-860; it's as good as either of those; only possible difference is key-off velocity sensing). But these Privias will feel very cheap and un-piano-like compared with your old CA97. But if you can make do with one then it's an inexpensive way to wait it out for the GF2 in a stage piano setup. The RD-800 is nice but way too expensive for a controller. VPC1 is better for less money (heavier too though). As an alternative to the Privia series (or even the RD-800), you may like to consider the new Roland F30 (again as an inexpensive "in the meantime" instrument) - has a similar action to the RD-800 ("standard" rather than "concert" version of PHA4).

The A88 IIRC has the Ivory Feel-G action, which is not so good (don't trust me on this though, double check Roland's specs; I've also read that not all Feel-G's are the same, but still I'd go for PHA4). SL88 Grand, if not plagued by Fatar's QC issues of previous SL models (e.g., Numa Nero) might be a good cost effective solution in the short-medium term. I'd forget Nord if you're not after the onboard sounds and features (too expensive, and it's just another Fatar keybed like the SL88, maybe a version behind, albeit somewhat customised by Nord). You could also look for second hand. Numa Nero e.g., if you get a good one, can be very nice and it's going to be a bargain because of so many complaints online about bad ones. (But you'll want to thoroughly test it. Take your laptop running Pianoteq and go through the MIDI data PTQ recorded when you get home; make sure there are no glitches.)

If you have the money to spend, don't want to wait, and heavy but still portable is okay, I'd say go for the MP11 with the GF action. The GF and GF2 are very similar. And sorry yes you will have to try one and see if you think it's a significant downgrade from the CA97 GF2 action. Otherwise wait it out for MP12(?) with GF2 action and get something okay enough to see you through till then.

Last edited by SteveLy (02-03-2016 20:07)
3/2 = 5

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Beto-Music wrote:

Please give us some report about how pianoteq sound connected to Kawai CA97, since this model uses a real piano soundboard as a speaker.  :-)

Some people say it's not a good idea to use a soundboard because it would limite then soundboard charact to a fixed element, even if you change settings in pianoteq. But I disagree, because the soubndboard in this case it's like a speaker and will reproduce what it have to reproduce.

CA97 have extra speakers (conventional) to help the frequencies that the soundbaord alone can't handle well.

Had you tested the pianoteq Steinway-B with CA97?

The sound comes out of the interface Scarlett 2i4 (unbalanced outputs) directly into the in-line of the CA97 (adjust input knob to avoid saturation), that's all.

Yes I tested the STW-B with the CA97 and so far happy. PTQ doesn't sound through the speakers on the CA97 as nice as in my studio monitors, but isn't bad either (the soundboard on the CA97 isn't a pure stereo system, as you well point out). Let's say it's good enough to me and I enjoy it.

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (02-03-2016 20:12)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

SteveLy wrote:

Otherwise wait it out for MP12(?) with GF2 action and get something okay enough to see you through till then.

an "MP12" would be an immediate winner.

Thank you for your opinion Steve.

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

My penny's worth - If you are short of space how about a Doepfer master keyboard & then buy separate amp/speakers?

Hope this helps

Neil

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Neil wrote:

My penny's worth - If you are short of space how about a Doepfer master keyboard & then buy separate amp/speakers?

It's yet another Fatar keyboard. So if it costs more than the SL88 and/or has not got the latest top Fatar action with triple-sensors and key-off-velocity, then stick with the SL88. Nearly all of the lesser known manufacturers (and some of the big ones) use Fatar keybeds. I highly doubt that you'll find the SL88 Grand keybed (i.e., triple sensor Fatar TP40W) for less from any other manufacturer.

Several shortcomings of the latest greatest Fatar piano action: all three sensors on keys only (three switches on a PCB) and no sensors on hammers (unlike even cheapies like e.g. Casio Privia/PX); AFAIK MIDI velocity of the SL88 is still just 128 levels (0-127) not high-res MIDI (Casio PX again); black and white key pivot points are the same (unlike real grand, or top Kawai VPC1/RM3, GF, GF2, where black keys' pivot is further back); "wooden" keys are mostly plastic dressed in wooden laminate on the sides. None of this may matter if the keyboard plays well, but it does show lack of initiative from Fatar when it comes to Piano action. They have safe long-term contracts with so many manufacturers (of synths and organs as well as piano style KBs) that I don't think they feel the need to innovate.

Last edited by SteveLy (08-03-2016 14:13)
3/2 = 5

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

You're right again SteveLY :-)

I suppose I just got used to the 'gigging' keyboard action out of necessity….

Or there's the 'Alpha piano' if you've got 18,000 Euro for just a master keyboard! :-0

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Thank you for the responses.

As for now, I guess the 2 most convincing alternatives seem to be the SL88 and the PX160. I've read some stuff regarding high resolution MIDI on the PX160 but I'm not sure how much difference would it make in real world and whether worth to consider at a decision making.

OTOH the 3 sensor matter, whether hammer sensor or not, seems to me a more important issue..

The SL88 seemed to me on paper the perfect candidate, especially because the programming capacity (nice computer interface) as I could easily change PTQ patches directly from the knob instead of using the mouse for this purpose (willing to plug it to a screenless NUC). It also has all the features a piano player would wish on a digital keybed, but no hammer sensor.. that sounds disappointing but again not sure how much the playing experience may differ from the PX one..

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (03-03-2016 09:19)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

I have the PX-160 and a Numa Nero (the predecessor to the SL88; essentially the same KB with 2 sensors instead of 3). A hammer sensor makes a difference in that you can just strike the key with a quick snap where the key itself moves very little but the hammer flies off and hits the sensor and the instrument still produces a sound (or MIDI output). I have not played the Nero enough, but the Fatar TP40/wood keybed feels a lot more solid than the PX-160 (or any other PX-***, even if the Fatar is mostly plastic with a bit of wooden dressing).

The PX keys do have a flimsier feel to them (e.g. more side to side movement) but one gets over it pretty quick because they are very playable. They are snappier/faster than the Fatar. But perhaps in time I will get used to the Fatar and will like it more. Maybe for training to play acoustic pianos the Fatar is better. The PX is almost too easy to play sometimes.

Whether three sensors on the keys alone make a big difference on the SL88, or whether they just put an extra one on there to keep up with the Joneses, I don't know. As far as MIDI resolution, I find it hard to stay within 5 levels out of 128 while trying to play as evenly as I can, which might mean that 0,1,...,127 is sufficient. But I do like the idea of hi-res MIDI velocity quantisation being so fine that odds are I will get a different sound each time I hit a key: not just getting one of 127 different possible velocity "samples". But I only like the idea. I don't know if my ears could really tell the difference.

You still do have to try them before you buy them you know. I'd give the Roland F-30 a shot too. Had it been out when I bought my PX-160 late last year I probably would have bought that instead (assuming it has the same PHA4-standard keybed as the F-140R).

Last edited by SteveLy (03-03-2016 12:13)
3/2 = 5

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

davidizquierdo82 wrote:
Beto-Music wrote:

Please give us some report about how pianoteq sound connected to Kawai CA97, since this model uses a real piano soundboard as a speaker.  :-)

Some people say it's not a good idea to use a soundboard because it would limite then soundboard charact to a fixed element, even if you change settings in pianoteq. But I disagree, because the soubndboard in this case it's like a speaker and will reproduce what it have to reproduce.

CA97 have extra speakers (conventional) to help the frequencies that the soundbaord alone can't handle well.

Had you tested the pianoteq Steinway-B with CA97?

The sound comes out of the interface Scarlett 2i4 (unbalanced outputs) directly into the in-line of the CA97 (adjust input knob to avoid saturation), that's all.

Yes I tested the STW-B with the CA97 and so far happy. PTQ doesn't sound through the speakers on the CA97 as nice as in my studio monitors, but isn't bad either (the soundboard on the CA97 isn't a pure stereo system, as you well point out). Let's say it's good enough to me and I enjoy it.

It is to be expected that the "soundboard" of the CA97 would provide a sensation that one is playing something more like a wooden piano, since it is essentially a soundboard of a wooden piano. 
As a spinet it is probably OK, but it is a very small board of wood and as such is very limited.
It is STILL a wooden soundboard located about where a spinet has its soundboard, so for "realism" (whatever THAT means) to the player it probably feels a lot more like a piano than a slab played through studio monitors (however good they may be in terms of frequency response, flatness of curve, etc.).
I wouldn't expect such a board to produce the full range of frequencies that PTQ produces for some of the large piano models, in fact I would suspect that it introduces filters that restrict many of the frequencies associated with the sounds of grand pianos.

Short version; For "sense of playing a spinet"; Probably Good.
For fidelity to the FULL range of frequencies produced by Pianoteq; probably better off with good studio monitors appropriately placed - or headphones.

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Thank you all for the responses.

So far the VPC1 seems the best option out there, although I'm not discarding any other brands yet. My best theoretical bed was the SL88 Grand as it looked like a decent competitor to the VPC1, but I've just watched to the recent review of PianomanChuck on it and it really discouraged me..

Is it really that different/bad compared to the VPC1? Any experiences out there?

I've searched the internet and found many different opinions, some people are so pleased and happy whereas some other just feel disappointed.

I had the chance to try the PX160 and it wasn't bad at all, but personally found it a bit on the light side plus the keys felt pretty flimsy as Steve well pointed out. Didn't care about the sound.

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Pianomanchuck is correct. I haven't played the SL88 but it's basically a Fatar TP40/Wood keyboard: one of the better piano actions out there but it's not as refined as the top Kawai, Yamaha or even Roland and Casio grand piano actions (but you're after semi-portable, so that leaves just Kawai and maybe Roland; Yamaha have the CP4 but the MP11 trumps it by a mile, though YMMV). If you like the Fatar TP40W action then the SL88 grand is a great buy. And yes it is a very different design: the SL88/TP40W is more of a weighted/modified synth/electronic-KB action than a from-the-ground-up piano action like the VPC1/RM3 or the GF.

I think you're right that the VPC1 is probably best for your needs. If you want to keep the cost down to SL88 Grand kind of prices then a used MP6 could be a good option too (IMO better action than TP40W; similar to MP7); or one of the slightly older MP-**00 (9000, 9500) beasts with long wooden keys and AWA * Grand action. Buying new, the Roland FP-30 may be more to your liking than the PX-160; a lot less flimsy than the Casio PX's and will play better IMO (assuming that it's basically an F-140R minus cabinet).

Last edited by SteveLy (04-03-2016 21:06)
3/2 = 5

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Tried to filter out the options a bit and came up to this:

VPC1   1400€
MP11   2300€
RD800  2200€
MP7     1600€
FP30      600€
ES100    700€

They all are in different price range but I wouldn't mind paying more if I get what I pay for, the same applies to the cheapest ones if the value/price ratio is better than the more expensive ones (by example the ES100 seems to be a great value for the buck, after reviews).

Again, not specially caring about sounds.

Any comments/suggestions on that?

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (04-03-2016 13:05)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Scratch the ES100 off your list or at least play it before you buy it. I know it gets good reviews but it's down there in the dregs with Yamaha's P45, P95, P115: just no! Not even for a grade 1 beginner (of classical piano; I have played a couple of ES100s and it's worse than my ~15 y.o. CN270 - which was a low-end Kawai cabinet upright back in the day). PX-160 is a lot better (and you've tried that already). Just my opinion though. Clearly many others disagree.

Least expensive capable Kawai and Yamaha new options are the ES8 and P255. Out of these two I'd strongly prefer the ES8. It's basically an on-paper step up from the MP7: RH3 vs RH2 action, but I can't tell the difference after a few minutes of playing both in a shop. The ES7 can be had for a lot less used, and is similar - same as MP7 with RH2 action.

Just on best-piano-action per Euro, from your list I'd look at the FP-30 and the VPC1 and decide between those two. I'd scratch the rest. (Not because they're no good but you're paying more for features you don't use.) If money was no object, VPC1 and MP11 would be the only contenders. But if you want the best action on a limited budget you should seriously consider buying second hand (used).

PS. This thread made me revisit my own similar query posted on this forum late last year. I've summarised my thoughts in a closing post to that thread: http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic...31#p942031

Last edited by SteveLy (04-03-2016 21:01)
3/2 = 5

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Thanks again for the help.

I've been thinking about it and came to the conclusion that nothing will come as close to my CA97 as my CA97, so my initial decision is to keep it for as long as possible.

I'll pay for moving it instead of losing money by selling it and thus downgrading gear.. maybe if a slab with GF2 comes up I'll rethink my decision.

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

In other places around the net there is speculation/rumor of a VPC2 ...sometime.
If/when that happens I will try to find a local outlet with one on display for test playing.

Maybe a year away, maybe more  ...marketing decisions I guess, the need to show "new and improved" at fairly regular intervals

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

I've been thinking about it and came to the conclusion that nothing will come as close to my CA97 as my CA97, so my initial decision is to keep it for as long as possible.

I'll pay for moving it instead of losing money by selling it and thus downgrading gear.. maybe if a slab with GF2 comes up I'll rethink my decision.

Good move!! And even with a GF2 stage piano you'd still have the speaker system to worry about. The CA97 probably has a very well tuned cabinet + speaker system that would be difficult to match without going to considerable expense.

Last edited by SteveLy (08-03-2016 07:36)
3/2 = 5

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Indeed, an MP12 or a VPC2 with GF2 or later would be a nice thing to see, I'd probably move onto it even if sacrifizing soundboard on CA97 for portability.

BTW I pretty much like how PTQ sounds through the CA97 but I kinda like more the sound on standard studio monitors, wonder how can I let it sound similar through the soundboard (maybe equalizing..?).

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

BTW I pretty much like how PTQ sounds through the CA97 but I kinda like more the sound on standard studio monitors, wonder how can I let it sound similar through the soundboard (maybe equalizing..?).

Sounds like you have some nice monitors. What are they?

3/2 = 5

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

SteveLy wrote:

Sounds like you have some nice monitors. What are they?

Actually a quiet low end couple of monitors which IMHO do the job excellent.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/view/bx...t66gEDKXlw

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

Thanks. Everyone says those monitors are are great bang for buck. Might have to invest in a pair or two.

3/2 = 5

Re: Advice on replacing my CA97

SteveLy wrote:

Thanks. Everyone says those monitors are are great bang for buck. Might have to invest in a pair or two.

They do quite fine, side by side I liked them more than the ESI Near05 Classic I ended up selling.

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz