Topic: The Clarity Challenge

Hello, anyone! I have two requests: I bought Pianoteq Stage six month ago, and I was pleasantly surprised by its capabilities, so I also bought the standard version. Even if I absolutely love Pianoteq and its instruments, there is always something that bothers me: sometimes the sound is too boxy/synthetic, or there are unpleasant overtones. I think the problem lays in the microphone placement, but I can't find a perspective that satisfies me. I recently discovered the binaural mode: I find myself enjoying it a lot more than the sound recording option, but i have the feeling that something is always lacking, so I decided to ask the community for help.
The sound I'm looking for is extremely similar to the one in this video, especially in the timbre (a lot less nasal than the D4) and in the way you "feel" the sound: it seems like your head is placed inside the piano, and you can hear every detail. It also has a very percussive quality, you can hear the hammers.
Could anyone replicate this sound?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ509Zpng2w

Thank you, sincerely

Re: The Clarity Challenge

Welcome to the forum.

Have you tried the new Steinway model B that is now on pianoteq 5.5 ?
It's the model with the clearest sound on pianoteq.
It offers a good perspective of what is coming.

Pianoteq sound is always improving. For a lot of people the timbre it's already very good and natural, and there are some few people, with audition sensible to very tinny nuances, who can still spot differences from a real piano sound. It's a matter of time to the sound quality evolve and reach the point to convince everyone

Last edited by Beto-Music (03-02-2016 20:28)

Re: The Clarity Challenge

Agree with Beto-Music about the Model B.

Also where you're at at your digital piano controller is usually not an ideal place to listen to sound from speakers. Typically keyboards are set up against a wall. A lot of the "muddiness" of the bottom end has to do with your ears being too close to one or more walls of the room. You'll get low-frequency phase enhancement and cancellation effects there.

Good sound system (amp + monitors), and well set up acoustic space (placement of speakers and listener, possibly anti-reflection surfaces on the walls esp. on those behind and close to speakers) can help a great deal. Unfortunately, usually such a setup requires a fair bit of room and otherwise somewhat inefficient use of space.

Nevertheless IMHO, all else being equal, in a less than ideal acoustic environment (very small space) the new model B sounds the clearest of all the acoustic pianos Pianoteq has to offer so far.

3/2 = 5

Re: The Clarity Challenge

Steve: You didn't mention headphones at all. What do you think about using headphones? You also didn't seem to consider that the O.P may be making comparisons between Pianoteq and other piano tones/recordings using the same equipment/environment. If a comparison is made using the same equipment, and A sounds better than B, then I'd wager that often,  with better equipment and/or a better acoustic environment, A will still sound better than B. 

Greg.

Re: The Clarity Challenge

skip wrote:

Steve: You didn't mention headphones at all. What do you think about using headphones? You also didn't seem to consider that the O.P may be making comparisons between Pianoteq and other piano tones/recordings using the same equipment/environment. If a comparison is made using the same equipment, and A sounds better than B, then I'd wager that often,  with better equipment and/or a better acoustic environment, A will still sound better than B.

I prefer not to use headphones and, more importantly, I don't have good quality ones (have a fairly expensive noise cancelling Panasonic pair, but sound quality is only mediocre). I agree that that would be a good way to go for making comparisons. Something I should invest in at some point.

I considered the issue you raise, but did not want my post to go on for too long. The OP will surely already know if that's the case. I recall a recent thread about Pianoteq sounding much better when listening to pre-recorded tracks than when playing. I expect that's a fairly common problem. There have been some interesting suggestions, including placing speakers on the floor at an angle (like foldback monitors).

What you say about A vs B comparison being largely equipment/environment-independent is true up to a point. But if the equipment/setup is too much of a weak link (like my headphones or PC speakers or e.g. listener standing next to a wall at a live music venue), it's no longer reliable for comparisons.

Last edited by SteveLy (03-02-2016 14:27)
3/2 = 5

Re: The Clarity Challenge

Ah, if you depend on speakers this is always going to be the primary constraint, no matter what piano VST you use--well, of course excluding the really terrible ones.

As audiophiles have known for a half century, speakers basically suck. Speakers in real rooms with all their reflections and cancellations suck even more. We get used to listening to real speakers in real rooms as we grow up and eventually they seem natural and realistic, even if they are not. No recorded piano performance actually sounds anything like a real piano, but our brain makes a metaphorical connection between the two and we are satisfied.

However, I have found myself that when playing a DP this metaphor breaks down: I want the thing to sound like a real AP. It never will, as my speakers and the room that contains them will never allow it. I know this, but keep trying.

Good headphones are in a different sonic league. However, psychologically, using them is a trade off because you don't get the physical impact of the sound.

Sometimes I use both at the same time (earphones and speakers), with very good open ear headphones.

Last edited by NormB (03-02-2016 16:03)

Re: The Clarity Challenge

NormB wrote:

However, I have found myself that when playing a DP this metaphor breaks down: I want the thing to sound like a real AP. It never will, as my speakers and the room that contains them will never allow it. I know this, but keep trying.

When playing a DP-Pianoteq I have some kind of idea in my mind that I don't actually play a real instrument but actually "playing a record". Though at the same all this ideas just vanishes and you just play music. Need to say I have an extremely modest consumer grade speakers/headphones which I don't blame ever.

NormB wrote:

Good headphones are in a different sonic league. However, psychologically, using them is a trade off because you don't get the physical impact of the sound.

Sometimes I use both at the same time (earphones and speakers), with very good open ear headphones.

You may want to check this: http://thesubpac.com/

Last edited by AKM (03-02-2016 16:26)

Re: The Clarity Challenge

skip wrote:

Steve: You didn't mention headphones at all. What do you think about using headphones? You also didn't seem to consider that the O.P may be making comparisons between Pianoteq and other piano tones/recordings using the same equipment/environment. If a comparison is made using the same equipment, and A sounds better than B, then I'd wager that often,  with better equipment and/or a better acoustic environment, A will still sound better than B. 

Greg.

I do not use speakers, because I find them unnatural when playing (and because I have very little money to use). Pianoteq is better than any VST I tried: I've listened even to top-tier VSTs like Ivory, but they all sound synthetic. They sound like real pianos, but not real pianos played by REAL PIANISTS, while Pianoteq sounds like a recorded piano but played by a real pianist, and you can recognize that because, if you play bad, it will sound bad lol.

Last edited by Lexiavor Bachmaninoff (03-02-2016 17:43)

Re: The Clarity Challenge

Beto-Music wrote:

Welcome to the forum.

Have you tried the new Steinway model B that is now on pianoteq 5.5 ?
It's the model with the clearest sound on pianoteq.
It offers a good perspective of what is coming.

Pianoteq sound is always improving. For a lot of people the timbre it's already very good and natural, and there are some few people, with audition sensible tovery tinny nuances, who can still spot differences from a real piano sound. It's a matter of time to the sound quality evolve ad reach the point to convince everyone


I think I found the right timbre: the Model B with binaural perspective and with less mids (using timbral EQ) is quite impressive, thank you! I think I will soon buy it, but before I will experiment with the timbral EQ with other presets, like the Bechstein: I never tried it and it is quite revelatory. Lowering the mids fixes the nasal timbre that I hate, and slightly raising the bass improves a lot the lower notes of the Bechstein.
There is still an element missing: what I call the raindrop effect. If you listen to the high notes in the video, they are thick but not muddy, they sound like raindrops, and I'm really struggling to obtain this effect.

Last edited by Lexiavor Bachmaninoff (03-02-2016 18:09)

Re: The Clarity Challenge

Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

I think I found the right timbre: the Model B with binaural perspective and with less mids (using timbral EQ) is quite impressive, thank you! I think I will soon buy it, but before I will experiment with the timbral EQ with other presets, like the Bechstein: I never tried it and it is quite revelatory. Lowering the mids fix the nasal timbre that I hate, and slightly raising the bass improves a lot the lower notes of the Bechstein.

Cool! Are you using the "Effects" EQ (parametric) or the pre-processing EQ?

Note that there is a free 1896 Bechstein model in the KIViR_v4 collection, which is not in the latest KIViR set. (It sounds a lot different from the 1899 model in Kremsegg #2.) See Philippe's recent posts on this thread (take note about not using the latest KIViR and KIViR_v4 together):
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic...31#p941231
There are other free "legacy" instruments you might like to check out as well. The K1 is probably the best one IMHO.

Re speakers, the M-Audio BX5 powered monitors can be had for around $US200 a pair ($100 used) and supposed to be excellent bang for buck. I have not had a chance to listen to them, but Pianoteq advocate pianist Phil Best uses them, so they can't be too bad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF9xh5YHW8w

Last edited by SteveLy (03-02-2016 18:46)
3/2 = 5

Re: The Clarity Challenge

SteveLy wrote:
Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

I think I found the right timbre: the Model B with binaural perspective and with less mids (using timbral EQ) is quite impressive, thank you! I think I will soon buy it, but before I will experiment with the timbral EQ with other presets, like the Bechstein: I never tried it and it is quite revelatory. Lowering the mids fix the nasal timbre that I hate, and slightly raising the bass improves a lot the lower notes of the Bechstein.

Cool! Are you using the "Effects" EQ (parametric) or the pre-processing EQ?

Note that there is a free 1896 Bechstein model in the KIViR_v4 collection, which is not in the latest KIViR set. (It sounds a lot different from the 1899 model in Kremsegg #2.) See Philippe's recent posts on this thread (take note about not using the latest KIViR and KIViR_v4 together):
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic...31#p941231
There are other free "legacy" instruments you might like to check out as well. The K1 is probably the best one IMHO.

Yes, I know that, but I don't like so much KIVIR's Bechstein, while the Kremsegg Bechstein is probably the most interesting piano in all Pianoteq, and I aim to make it the perfect instrument for me. For now, the problems are the lack of the raindrop effect that I mentioned before and the too weak bass. Lowering the mids in the "effects" EQ does improve, but if I raise too much the bass it becomes muddy, and muddiness kills counterpoint, and I mainly play Bach! The K1 doesn't meet my taste, while the K2 could be one of the best if not THE best piano in Pianoteq, but it sounds too electric and has this annoying overtones and nasal timbre that makes it "uncomfortable" for me, because I have extremely sensitive ears: I litterally have an headache if there are overtones that I don't like or the sound is too high, so it's quite a pain to "tune" every instrument. I find that I dislike a lot a "perfecly tuned" instrument: raising the conditioner slider to 70 and doing a little random detuning makes everything very natural and easy to listen, and it also improve counterpoint clarity, because every single key feels more individual and unique. I also play in Werkmeister III temperament, even using non-historical temperaments, and set the diapason to 436 hz for modern instrument, 430 or 415hz for pre 1830 ones. And the fact that you can actually choose different temperament and tune your instrument as you like makes Pianoteq the best VST out there.
I'm sorry, but I really can't spend 200€ for speakers now: I use a pair of Symphonized NGR wood, which are really cheap earbuds (I don't like big headphones, they just don't feel "right" to me) that cost me 30€ on Amazon, but they feel a lot better than a lot of 100+€ earbuds, at least to me. Perhaps is because of the wood, but I really love them!

Last edited by Lexiavor Bachmaninoff (03-02-2016 18:54)

Re: The Clarity Challenge

You may want to check this: http://thesubpac.com/

Now that is an interesting piece of equipment. I will look into it further. Tnx

Re: The Clarity Challenge

All vintage models of pianoteq, at the time, sounded a bit better, in terms of naturality, than the modern pianos released in the same time.  The Kremsegg models sounds quite natural. I imagine modern pianos have some ellement that makes modelling just a bit more complicated. But the Bechstein 1899 have crossed strings and apparently a modern harp, anyway sounds great.


PunBB bbcode test


Be sure to choose the right velocity curve, to ensure for example that the mf you play it's really a mf that will be rendered by the software.
For exemple the controller Kawai VPC1 have a sensibility that needs different adjusts to get the best from different piano softwares:


PunBB bbcode test


What a coincidence, I was watching the comparison of pianoteq model D with a real Steinway D, from 15 months ago, and the despite of almost perfect sound, one detail that was missing was something that I imagine sounded like a water drop sound near the attack, perceptible in Chopin Nocturne op.9 N.2 . 
We both imagine the same metaphor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l4aAFD-moY

If I remember well the model D got some few refinements after this vídeo comparison was made.

Keep in touch with the forum. You know how regognize the good points of pianoteq, and also have good ears and perfectionismo to see the few points where it can/need still improve.


Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

...the Bechstein: I never tried it and it is quite revelatory. Lowering the mids fixes the nasal timbre that I hate, and slightly raising the bass improves a lot the lower notes of the Bechstein.
There is still an element missing: what I call the raindrop effect. If you listen to the high notes in the video, they are thick but not muddy, they sound like raindrops, and I'm really struggling to obtain this effect.

Last edited by Beto-Music (03-02-2016 20:44)

Re: The Clarity Challenge

Beto-Music wrote:

All vintage models of pianoteq, at the time, sounded a bit better, in terms of naturality, than the modern pianos released in the same time.  The Kremsegg models sounds quite natural. I imagine modern pianos have some ellement that makes modelling just a bit more complicated. But the Bechstein 1899 have crossed strings and apparently a modern harp, anyway sounds great.


PunBB bbcode test


Be sure to choose the right velocity curve, to ensure for example that the mf you play it's really a mf that will be rendered by the software.
For exemple the controller Kawai VPC1 have a sensibility that needs different adjusts to get the best from different piano softwares:


PunBB bbcode test


What a coincidence, I was watching the comparison of pianoteq model D with a real Steinway D, from 15 months ago, and the despite of almost perfect sound, one detail that was missing was something that I imagine sounded like a water drop sound near the attack, perceptible in Chopin Nocturne op.9 N.2 . 
We both imagine the same metaphor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l4aAFD-moY

If I remember well the model D got some few refinements after this vídeo comparison was made.

Keep in touch with the forum. You know how regognize the good points of pianoteq, and also have good ears and perfectionismo to see the few points where it can/need still improve.


Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

...the Bechstein: I never tried it and it is quite revelatory. Lowering the mids fixes the nasal timbre that I hate, and slightly raising the bass improves a lot the lower notes of the Bechstein.
There is still an element missing: what I call the raindrop effect. If you listen to the high notes in the video, they are thick but not muddy, they sound like raindrops, and I'm really struggling to obtain this effect.



The velocity curve is my curse: I have an M-Audio Keystation 88 (I know, it's a low-end keyboard but has a lovely action, even if it doesn't feel like a real piano I'm NOT looking for a piano action but just for a versatile one) and I'm quite a heavy player, so I set the "very fast" curve and it works fine, but not fine enough, and I am too lazy to tweak the velocity curve now, so if anyone can help me about this, I would be extremely grateful. And no, I can't buy another keyboard now, nor I want to do it.
Also: I don't like the D4 so much, but it's not Pianoteq fault. I simply am not a Steinway guy: in real life I would chose a Petrof, for its crystaline timbre and extreme clarity, a Bechstein or an old Kawai, for its extremely versatile tone. The best piano I've ever tried was a 80 years old Kawai, and it could do the softest pianissimo at extremely high speed, and it could produce a muscular tone just a second later. One moment it was very percussive, one moment sound like an amplified Flamenco guitar. I simply love this thing, and I struggled for an entire month to replicate this quality. Regrettably, I had very little success.

Last edited by Lexiavor Bachmaninoff (03-02-2016 22:38)

Re: The Clarity Challenge

Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

Pianoteq is better than any VST I tried: I've listened even to top-tier VSTs like Ivory, but they all sound synthetic. They sound like real pianos, but not real pianos played by REAL PIANISTS, while Pianoteq sounds like a recorded piano but played by a real pianist, and you can recognize that because, if you play bad, it will sound bad

It seems to me that with the sampled instruments it's as if, however you bash away, it never sounds too bad. Maybe it's to do with the compression inherent in the sampling process. I don't know. Sampling is a dark art. With Pianoteq the connection between what you do at the keyboard and what comes out is much more apparent - more like an acoustic piano but, then again, not quite the same. Except that no two acoustic pianos are the same either of course. You have to learn to play each and every one, just as it seems to me that you have to learn to play the different pianos in Pianoteq. When I first started a couple of weeks ago I was making the most dreadful racket but I'm starting to get them to sing now.

NormB wrote:

No recorded piano performance actually sounds anything like a real piano, but our brain makes a metaphorical connection between the two and we are satisfied. However, I have found myself that when playing a DP this metaphor breaks down

Yes, there's something going on here isn't there? I noticed that Synthogy's demo policy is to provide mp3s of people playing Ivory II. I didn't even bother listening to any of them because I know from experience that it will tell me nothing about what it's like to play the sample sets. And I'm starting to give up hope anyway that any sampled instrument will offer the sort of connection that I refer to above.

Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

Even if I absolutely love Pianoteq and its instruments, there is always something that bothers me: sometimes the sound is too boxy/synthetic, or there are unpleasant overtones.

Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

I do not use speakers, because I find them unnatural when playing (and because I have very little money to use).

NormB wrote:

As audiophiles have known for a half century, speakers basically suck. Speakers in real rooms with all their reflections and cancellations suck even more. We get used to listening to real speakers in real rooms as we grow up and eventually they seem natural and realistic, even if they are not.
...
Good headphones are in a different sonic league. However, psychologically, using them is a trade off because you don't get the physical impact of the sound.

Personally I don't like using headphones - even really good ones - with digital pianos, not though because of what I'd describe as the loss of 'physical impact' (how loud do you play?) but because you cease somehow to be in the room. I wonder if it's got something to do with the way in which the sound of the instrument changes as you move (your head) - or something like that. Whatever it is, it seems very unnatural to me.

But 'real speakers in real rooms' are indeed a challenge. Sadly, I suspect that the truth is that you need very good speakers in a very good room and it might just be cheaper and take up no more space to go out and buy a reasonably new second-hand Steinway Model B or even D, or whatever else tickles your fancy. (Although I'd concede that if you want the range of large grands that Pianoteq offers it is going to get seriously expensive and space-consuming.)

For the digital version, anything short of something like a pair of ATC SCM25As (my personal favourite) in a properly acoustically treated environment simply isn't going to do something like Pianoteq justice. I'd suggest that problems with 'boxiness' and 'unpleasant overtones' are much more likely to be due to your equipment and environment than to Pianoteq.

One interesting thing to try, if it's possible for you, is to take your gear outside. I've done this a number of times in various circumstances just to get more of an idea what my room is doing to the sound. The answer is always that it's doing 'a lot', and what it's doing is unwelcome. But, here in the UK at least, it's too wet and cold I'm afraid to become an 'al fresco' pianist.

N1X - PT Pro - Linux

Re: The Clarity Challenge

IanL wrote:
Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

Pianoteq is better than any VST I tried: I've listened even to top-tier VSTs like Ivory, but they all sound synthetic. They sound like real pianos, but not real pianos played by REAL PIANISTS, while Pianoteq sounds like a recorded piano but played by a real pianist, and you can recognize that because, if you play bad, it will sound bad

It seems to me that with the sampled instruments it's as if, however you bash away, it never sounds too bad. Maybe it's to do with the compression inherent in the sampling process. I don't know. Sampling is a dark art. With Pianoteq the connection between what you do at the keyboard and what comes out is much more apparent - more like an acoustic piano but, then again, not quite the same. Except that no two acoustic pianos are the same either of course. You have to learn to play each and every one, just as it seems to me that you have to learn to play the different pianos in Pianoteq. When I first started a couple of weeks ago I was making the most dreadful racket but I'm starting to get them to sing now.

NormB wrote:

No recorded piano performance actually sounds anything like a real piano, but our brain makes a metaphorical connection between the two and we are satisfied. However, I have found myself that when playing a DP this metaphor breaks down

Yes, there's something going on here isn't there? I noticed that Synthogy's demo policy is to provide mp3s of people playing Ivory II. I didn't even bother listening to any of them because I know from experience that it will tell me nothing about what it's like to play the sample sets. And I'm starting to give up hope anyway that any sampled instrument will offer the sort of connection that I refer to above.

Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

Even if I absolutely love Pianoteq and its instruments, there is always something that bothers me: sometimes the sound is too boxy/synthetic, or there are unpleasant overtones.

Lexiavor Bachmaninoff wrote:

I do not use speakers, because I find them unnatural when playing (and because I have very little money to use).

NormB wrote:

As audiophiles have known for a half century, speakers basically suck. Speakers in real rooms with all their reflections and cancellations suck even more. We get used to listening to real speakers in real rooms as we grow up and eventually they seem natural and realistic, even if they are not.
...
Good headphones are in a different sonic league. However, psychologically, using them is a trade off because you don't get the physical impact of the sound.

Personally I don't like using headphones - even really good ones - with digital pianos, not though because of what I'd describe as the loss of 'physical impact' (how loud do you play?) but because you cease somehow to be in the room. I wonder if it's got something to do with the way in which the sound of the instrument changes as you move (your head) - or something like that. Whatever it is, it seems very unnatural to me.

But 'real speakers in real rooms' are indeed a challenge. Sadly, I suspect that the truth is that you need very good speakers in a very good room and it might just be cheaper and take up no more space to go out and buy a reasonably new second-hand Steinway Model B or even D, or whatever else tickles your fancy. (Although I'd concede that if you want the range of large grands that Pianoteq offers it is going to get seriously expensive and space-consuming.)

For the digital version, anything short of something like a pair of ATC SCM25As (my personal favourite) in a properly acoustically treated environment simply isn't going to do something like Pianoteq justice. I'd suggest that problems with 'boxiness' and 'unpleasant overtones' are much more likely to be due to your equipment and environment than to Pianoteq.

One interesting thing to try, if it's possible for you, is to take your gear outside. I've done this a number of times in various circumstances just to get more of an idea what my room is doing to the sound. The answer is always that it's doing 'a lot', and what it's doing is unwelcome. But, here in the UK at least, it's too wet and cold I'm afraid to become an 'al fresco' pianist.

Well: it's true, samples will never sound really bad, but they won't sound really wonderful either. I don't mind if the sound is not perfect, but I'm extremely disappointed if you can't even guess who the pianist his when listening to a sampled piano.
Also, I actually want Pianoteq to have MORE possibilities than a real piano. I don't have the money to buy one, but even if I had, I would probably still be using mostly Pianoteq, because you can't use a pinch harmonic pedal on a real piano, you can't tune your piano one day at 420hz and one day at 436hz, you can't use a celeste pedal on a grand piano, you can't even use the harmonic pedal if you don't buy a Feurich, but you CAN do all this thing using Pianoteq, and for a musician like me this enormous range of possibilities is priceless, and it became a fundamental part of my playing style: in my personal interpretation of Bach's Partita no.2 (sinfonia only) the first part is played with the sustain pedal, while the second is played with the harmonic pedal to do staccatos while keeping the resonance and with the celeste pedal down to smooth the sound. I couldn't play the sinfonia as I do without Pianoteq!
Regarding headphones: I prefere them BECAUSE you cease to be in the room, lol, but this is just my personal taste.
Pianoteq is not a real piano: Pianoteq is Pianoteq.