Topic by jpiano

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Topic: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Hi,

I tried several settings on different pieces with the Bluethner and there is always the same acoustic problem in the midrange around the Eb3 note. More widely, I think that all the notes between C4-Db4 and Ab4 ring as a kind of ''bell'' and this is more or less unpleasant (sometimes unbearable) on certain types of pieces and passages. It also seems very accentuated when we want to customize micing and reverb.

Could someone help me to solve this problem? ...maybe with the spectrum profile in Note Edit?

Here, an audio example with Bluethner Concert Recording AB (default preset) and a comparison with an extract of Artur Pizarro recording who also uses a Bluethner Model One.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ing_AB.mp3

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...el_One.mp3

Here, the sheet music with the notes in red that pose the problem.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxxc-x...sp=sharing

Thank’s for your help

Last edited by jpiano (25-08-2015 09:07)

Reply by jpiano

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Here, the midi file of the complete sonata from Piano-E-Competition :

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ard_Na.MID

Reply by Chopin87

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Probably the "bell" sound is the sympathetic resonance and the aliquot strings. The difference between the two audios is tiny and I think is related more to dynamics, mics and perhaps the use of una corda pedal considering the soft sound. So in the microphone setup I would also change the Neumann U87s with DPA omins or the much better perfect omnis.

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Reply by Gilles

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Maybe you are sensitive to the unison width settings in the C3-C4 region. I know soft melodies in the middle octave are sometimes unsatisfactory even though the Bluethner is very good in that region. I uploaded a modified preset where the unison width between C3 and C4 are set to 0. See if you like the more stable melody notes better.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?id=2374

edit: by the way I noticed you changed your comment from Eb3 to Eb4 but the note is really Eb3 for pianoteq as shown on your score.

Last edited by Gilles (25-08-2015 14:03)

Reply by jpiano

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Thank you Chopin87. I received an email from Philippe Guillaume who advised me to use the spectral profile to adjust the harmonics individually.

For Eb4 note: 1st: -1.8; 2nd: -2.0; 6th: -4.0; 7th: +2.0; 8th: +2.0; 10th: -2.0.

It's quite better! Here is the result:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...improv.mp3

I am going to try to do the same thing with the other notes ...I was right to move to the Pianoteq Pro version!

I will also see if I can improve by reducing the sympathetic resonance and aliquot strings.

DPA omnis are actually more appropriate than U87 to obtain a natural sound ...I just took the default preset for this example, but there was the same problem with DPA.

Last edited by jpiano (25-08-2015 14:25)

Reply by Modellingoptimist

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Artur Pizarro on Pianoteq ! That's the news of the day :-). Also listen to "Volodos plays Mompou" and guess which model it is .

Anyway, I'm curious what you make of it, jpiano. Is it right that you cancelled your second upload series?

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Reply by jpiano

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Thank you Gilles for the fxp file. I'll maybe try to combine this unison setting with the spectrum profile for better results.

Reply by jpiano

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Gilles wrote:

edit: by the way I noticed you changed your comment from Eb3 to Eb4 but the note is really Eb3 for pianoteq as shown on your score.

Yes indeed.

Reply by jpiano

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

I didn’t know this Volodos recording, but we recognize well the Bluethner sound! Very great!

Sorry for the mp3 file, there was an error while uploading. Maybe the server?

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

jpiano wrote:

Sorry for the mp3 file, there was an error while uploading. Maybe the server?

It was because the file name was too long, we have shortened the name to fix the issue and edited your post to change the file name.

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by Modellingoptimist

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

jpiano wrote:

I didn’t know this Volodos recording, but we recognize well the Bluethner sound!

Really? It's a Steinway D . It instantly reminded me of Pianoteq. After a side by side comparison I'm once more convinced the D4 is a believable emulation of the real thing.

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Reply by jpiano

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Modellingoptimist wrote:

Really? It's a Steinway D.

It is a Bluethnered Steinway for my ears. ...but I know well that Volodos is fundamentally an Steinway artist.

Last edited by jpiano (26-08-2015 09:32)

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

I maybe found what disturbs my ears !!!

Listen to it :

Eb4 played with Bluethner Concert Recording AB (default preset). The 8th harmonic is very present. It is like a whistle… is it normal?

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...8th0dB.mp3

Eb4 played with Bluethner Concert Recording AB (default preset just with 8th harmonic reduced to -12 dB)

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...h-12dB.mp3

I tried this new setting with the adagio and now it is better a lot for me. I just also reduces 6th harmonic to -4 dB.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...cAB_V3.mp3

Reply by jpiano

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Please, it's better to listen to with headphones.

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

The examples below are a little more obvious :


Bluethner Concert Recording AB (default preset)

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...tRecAB.mp3

Bluethner Concert Recording AB (default preset with Eb4 6th and 8th harmonics reduced) …I am not completely satisfied, but Eb4 raises less problem.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...withV3.mp3

Pizarro's Bluethner

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ethner.mp3

Reply by jpiano

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

jpiano wrote:

The examples below are a little more obvious :

Bluethner Concert Recording AB (default preset)

Of course, the problem is even more obvious when listening the whole piece.

Reply by Gilles

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

jpiano wrote:

I maybe found what disturbs my ears !!!

Listen to it :

Eb4 played with Bluethner Concert Recording AB (default preset). The 8th harmonic is very present. It is like a whistle… is it normal?

This example is strictly an artifact of the Medium Hall reverb in my opinion. To reduce it, move the tone slider to the left, moving to the right emphasizes the room resonance. Try using another reverb setup or another preset.

Last edited by Gilles (26-08-2015 13:49)

Reply by Chopin87

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

jpiano wrote:

The examples below are a little more obvious :


Bluethner Concert Recording AB (default preset)

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...tRecAB.mp3

Bluethner Concert Recording AB (default preset with Eb4 6th and 8th harmonics reduced) …I am not completely satisfied, but Eb4 raises less problem.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...withV3.mp3

Pizarro's Bluethner

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ethner.mp3


I do hear it now. What a relief I am not yet deaf, lol!  \o/

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Reply by jpiano

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Re: Acoustic problem around Eb4 note on Bluethner

Gilles wrote:

Try using another reverb setup or another preset.

Ok, I'm trying...