Topic by delt

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Topic: Piano sounds: fast same-note repeats, loss of velocity?

The effect is much more noticeable in the lower range. I'm still wondering if Pianoteq is doing this... i always thought it was my keyboard's firmware, but with harpsichord sounds it's a lot less prominent, so i'm not too sure.... it's hard to test with my other keyboard because it has cheap spring action that gives much higher velocities. Paying attention to the velocity graph in Pianoteq, i don't see much wider difference between the velocities of notes i'm playing. And i don't have any other good virtual pianos handy for testing.

So if it's Pianoteq or the keyboard's firmware, or a combination of both... in any case, i guess the logic being that on a real piano, when you repeat a note quickly, the hammer doesn't have time to return to its resting position. The loss of velocity is dependent on exact timing, and seems to be calculated from the moment the note is released. So for example, if i play a note, hold it down, and then quickly release it and play it again, the second time i play it might have either same velocity, slightly less velocity, or much less velocity. This is much more present the lower i play, rendering fast repeats on the low octaves nearly impossible to control velocity.

This might be a stupid question, but if Pianoteq is doing this, is there any way to turn it off, or at least minimize it???

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
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Reply by delt

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Re: Piano sounds: fast same-note repeats, loss of velocity?

*b0ink*

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
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Reply by groovy

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Re: Piano sounds: fast same-note repeats, loss of velocity?

Hm, the M-Audio Oxygen 88 has dual-sensor keys. On my dual-sensor Kawai ES3 I cannot reproduce your observations. The velocity is always the same, no matter how fast the repeat-rate is (even when I repeat a note as fast as I can). The note-on velocity depends only on the timespan between closing contact 1 and contact 2 and that is always the same at a given average speed of the moving key.

Just for interest, does your Oxygen 88 transmit note-off velocities or just note-off=0 like my ES3?

Reply by delt

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Re: Piano sounds: fast same-note repeats, loss of velocity?

Hey groovy, thanks for your reply.

groovy wrote:

Just for interest, does your Oxygen 88 transmit note-off velocities or just note-off=0 like my ES3?

It transmits only note-off = 0. Doesn't really bother me much, tho - especially if i use heavy reverb on top of my sound (: Maybe if it's possible to update the firmware on this keyboard...?


...but i'm interested in knowing if Pianoteq does some kind of compensating for velocities on fast same-note repeats, as i explained in my above post - and if it does, how to turn it off. The reason i ask is that i get this loss of velocity on fast repeats (especially in the lower range) only with Pianoteq's piano sounds. It's not present, or at least much less present on the harpsichords, and even some multi-velocity piano samples don't do this. Hard to test objectively tho.

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Reply by GRB

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Re: Piano sounds: fast same-note repeats, loss of velocity?

delt wrote:

This might be a stupid question, but if Pianoteq is doing this, is there any way to turn it off, or at least minimize it???

You might mess with the dynamics slider, which I came to realize has the greatest dynamics at the very left and the least at the right, which is opposite of what I would have assumed.

Also you could try setting the very left most  ppp value of the velocity curve to the minimum  point at which a soft press transmits.  On my Casio PX-150 that somewhere around 22 - 25.  However this wrecks the playback of pre-recorded .mid files, so you have to use a different velocity curve for them.

Obviously with Pianoteq the quality of the voice is no longer an issue but the quality of the keyboard controller is huge,  I think the electronic sensors are more important than the action itself, as the touch is very dependent on the perceived output of the sound.  In other the words the whole thing is very psychological.  But a keyboard that doesn't output the full range of midi, (0-127) in a smooth linear fashion would have to be declared to be poor quality.  Hopefully someone will dream up a way to manufacture a high quality low cost controller keyboard. Finally I suppose some of this is also determined by the digital to analogue converter in your sound card.  Presumably better sound cards would make a difference.

Last edited by GRB (20-07-2015 18:39)
Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: Piano sounds: fast same-note repeats, loss of velocity?

GRB wrote:

You might mess with the dynamics slider, which I came to realize has the greatest dynamics at the very left and the least at the right, which is opposite of what I would have assumed.

Hmm... there must be something wrong in your configuration: when the dynamics slider is completely to the left, there is no dynamics at all, that is, the volume is the same at all velocities. When it is completely to the right, you have 100 dB volume variation from the lowest audible velocity to highest velocity.

Note however that even when the dynamics is set to 0 (no volume variation), there is still a timbre variation, from smooth to brilliant. If you want to cancel this "timbre variation", you have to adjust the hammer harness too.

Regarding delt's question, there is no velocity adjustment/compensation for repeated notes, although the model itself does take repetition into account in the way the next note is played and the previous one is altered by the coming one.

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by GRB

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Re: Piano sounds: fast same-note repeats, loss of velocity?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:
GRB wrote:

You might mess with the dynamics slider, which I came to realize has the greatest dynamics at the very left and the least at the right, which is opposite of what I would have assumed.

Hmm... there must be something wrong in your configuration: when the dynamics slider is completely to the left, there is no dynamics at all, that is, the volume is the same at all velocities. When it is completely to the right, you have 100 dB volume variation from the lowest audible velocity to highest velocity.

Note however that even when the dynamics is set to 0 (no volume variation), there is still a timbre variation, from smooth to brilliant. If you want to cancel this "timbre variation", you have to adjust the hammer harness too.

Regarding delt's question, there is no velocity adjustment/compensation for repeated notes, although the model itself does take repetition into account in the way the next note is played and the previous one is altered by the coming one.

Thanks for replying.  Maybe my ears are screwed up.  I have the Stage Model, so there is no timbre adjustment as far as I know.   Is there somewhere else I can look within Linux itself to see what might be happening.  After I wrote the post I noticed that I could be wrong.  Could it be the Pianoteq appears to sound more dynamic when it's actually set to less because of the way data that is sent from the controller plays differently?  Listening to a well played .mid file from Lots2learn, it seems the dynamics slider puts in more "softs" then "louds."  It really is very confusing as to what might be going on.  Should I be useing "jack" instead of "alsa"?  The keyboard calibration does not work properly on my system other than for the pedal.  It doesn't detect the softest level played.

Last edited by GRB (20-07-2015 23:48)
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Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: Piano sounds: fast same-note repeats, loss of velocity?

GRB wrote:

Could it be the Pianoteq appears to sound more dynamic when it's actually set to less because of the way data that is sent from the controller plays differently?

It can sound more "dynamic" when there is no volume variation, not because the way data that is sent from the controller, but because your ear is not used to a timbre variation disconnected from the natural volume variation that usually comes with. It is a sort of an acoustic illusion, your brain may exaggerate the timbre variation because of the lack of volume variation. But if you measure the volume (sound wave amplitude), you will see that it remains (almost) constant when dynamics is set to 0.

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Reply by GRB

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Re: Piano sounds: fast same-note repeats, loss of velocity?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:
GRB wrote:

Could it be the Pianoteq appears to sound more dynamic when it's actually set to less because of the way data that is sent from the controller plays differently?

It can sound more "dynamic" when there is no volume variation, not because the way data that is sent from the controller, but because your ear is not used to a timbre variation disconnected from the natural volume variation that usually comes with. It is a sort of an acoustic illusion, your brain may exaggerate the timbre variation because of the lack of volume variation. But if you measure the volume (sound wave amplitude), you will see that it remains (almost) constant when dynamics is set to 0.

Good point.  I know the horizontal green bar meter is a measure of amplitude, and I think the bars on the velocity display are brighter as the amplitude increases.  I was trying to find a scope in Linux but didn't have any luck.  Perhaps your more expensive versions may have displays that are selectable.  I was thinking maybe dots on the velocity display that got bigger as the amplitude was greater might be good.  Maybe the bars should change length; always anchored to the bottom, but shorter when played softly, and longer when played more loudly.  Presumably the midpoint on the dynamics slider represent "normal."  On the other hand, any complex display that slows down the response of the piano voice would be an obvious negative.

What I was trying to say about the controller is that if it's not really smooth, then to attenuate the "dynamics" might improve the overall quality of the music, but I don't understand how there can be timbrel variation without an amplitude change on a single key on a single instrument.  The original question that I answered was about rapidly repeated notes.

Okay, I think I finally understand the adjustments and have calibrated my Casio PX-150 to the Bluthner piano: Velocity curve is linear but limited to 30,0 - 117, 127 because the Casio doesn't transmit an audible note much below 30, and likewise doesn't transmit a loud note above 117.  If I set the dynamics slider at mid-point (50)  "le son est comme la merde", therefore I have set it at 26 which allegedly reduces dynamics, but in fact makes the overall sound louder, and as pointed out somewhere, less dynamic.  Nevertheless the instrument is playable whereas at the mid-point it's not.  The moral of the story is the dynamics slider does in fact have the effect of changing the touch response of the controller.

All the above said, these are terrible settings for the included "Demo" blues, or other .mid files supplied by others.  So one size does not fit all.  Velocity curves and dynamics must be tailored to individual voices, performances, and controllers.  One thing that amazed me after actually having the Pianoteq Stage is how flexible it actually is.  Even though it's promoted as a limited entry level model, the fact  of the matter is there is much more control over the sound than any stand alone digital piano that I have had experience with.

Last edited by GRB (21-07-2015 14:03)
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