Topic: Harmonic pedal
Does the Pianoteq's harmonic pedal acts in the same way as the Feurich's harmonic pedal?
Last edited by Ross (05-12-2014 20:04)
Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9
- Ross
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- custral
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Re: Harmonic pedal
Well it's not in the same file-order (numbering 1..4 as player-left..right, Pianoteq harmonique is 2, Fuerich 4); but since all their pedal-tooltips say you can reassign the controllers, that'd seem trivial to fix.
This Barton discussion using Wendl&Lung piano has the same pedal layout as Fuerich. It also presents (rapidly) the new pedal-markings, and there's a fistful, so a variety of effects seems envisaged.
If you expand the dropdown from the Info, there's links off to full perfs of Harmonious Blacksmith (rather nice) and Partita 1 (clattery) played by a student, they may show observance of an editor's use of these marks. Or may not. The Blacksmith does sound good so there's expertise been brought to bear, and Barton is evidently not abreast of the new technics called for, yet, otherwise we'd be hearing theses pieces from him.
- Ross
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Re: Harmonic pedal
custral, I mean pedal's action, not order. Order doesn't matter in Pianoteq at all.
Feirich's pedal can action as damper pedal (full press) and as sostenuto pedal (full press -> half press).
Last edited by Ross (06-12-2014 09:37)
Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9
- custral
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Re: Harmonic pedal
I was dropping a hint (read Pianoteq's tooltip for its Harmonic pedal), in case you had not. It isn't fully revealing, in part because of the very recent mooting on another thread whether to expand the options that PTQ's Sostenuto pedal offers. Modartt will come up with its response in time.
And then we might see how the result will play into your query - if anyone can buy or fashion a 4-pedal arrangement.
Concerning the new pedal marks, have a look at this, (scroll down), where a wider range of effects than just a sostenuto-shift is contemplated. What Modartt might contemplate's hard to guess, but full emulation's a complete possible, given the will.
- daniel-carlow
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Re: Harmonic pedal
Just recently I played around with the harmonic pedal in Pianoteq and afterwards had a look at an interesting video by Paul Barton on the harmonic pedal Ross mentioned in the initial posting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAOvGra...re=related
If I understand custral correct, then the specifications of the two pedals (acoustic vs Pianoteq) differ, which would be consistent with my experience.
I remember a posting by Philippe Guillaume stating an essential difference in Pianoteq's version:
"In the real world: once a key has been released, the damper stays down unless you reactivate the fourth pedal. In the virtual world, it can work 100% because there is no mechanical constraint: after key release, the damper goes down to damper the note but rises again immediately after, which is almost impossible to achieve in the real world."
To me another difference seems to be that the virtual pedal is continuous in the sense how much all pedals are lifted. Am I correct here?
In contrast the acoustic version of the pedal has three states (off/half press=harmonic resonance/full press=sustain pedal resonace).
Am I correct in observing that Pianoteq's harmonic pedal behaves similar to the harmonic resonance (half press) with the aforementioned differences and that there is currently no sustain pedal resonance possible with the harmonic pedal?
I find the latter in the acoustic version actually a very interesting feature, since for example it enables to hold bass notes sustained when changing from full pressed to half pressed harmonic pedal. This behaviour is described also at the bottom of the page to which custral provided a link ("Resonance become Harmonic").
I wonder what happens on the acoustic instrument to strings sustained while the harmonic pedal is fully pressed and then hit again while the harmonic pedal is only half pressed: Are the notes dampered at the releasing of the keys or are they sustained, e.g. the pedal behaves here like a sostenuto pedal regarding those notes? Also it would be interesting to know whether one can combine the use of the sostenuto pedal and the harmonic pedal on the acoustic instrument?
What are Pianoteq's thoughts on this matter, especially implementing different kinds of harmonic pedals in Pianoteq?
Last edited by daniel-carlow (13-06-2015 17:47)
- delt
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Re: Harmonic pedal
The problem comes when you write pieces of music that use these advanced features, and people who don't have such pedals try to learn your piece of music....
http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit
- daniel-carlow
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Re: Harmonic pedal
delt wrote:
The problem comes when you write pieces of music that use these advanced features, and people who don't have such pedals try to learn your piece of music....
Of course one could discuss whether this really poses a problem (e.g., the artist might just be interested in using these features for music production).
Anyway: As Pianoteq does implement features found rarely on acoustic pianos (as for example an extended key range or the harmonic pedal), for me the question still remains, why it seems to have been implemented differently in Pianoteq as in the real world?
Cheers,
Daniel
- Philippe Guillaume
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Re: Harmonic pedal
Ross wrote:
Does the Pianoteq's harmonic pedal acts in the same way as the Feurich's harmonic pedal?
Not exactly, Pianoteq's harmonic pedal works as when Feurich's harmonic pedal is half pressed (with the aforementioned difference that in Pianoteq the damper rises again after the damping period).
daniel-carlow wrote:
Am I correct in observing that Pianoteq's harmonic pedal behaves similar to the harmonic resonance (half press) with the aforementioned differences and that there is currently no sustain pedal resonance possible with the harmonic pedal?
Pianoteq's harmonic pedal lifts the dampers in the same way as the sustain pedal does, hence it is nothing else than a sustain pedal whith the additional possibility of interrupting individual notes when receiving NOTE OFF messages. It behaves also similarly regarding partial pedalling. When both pedals are triggered simultaneously, the dampers height is the maximum of the height specified by each pedal. Both pedals, sustain and harmonic, are continuous.
- aandrmusic
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Re: Harmonic pedal
I'm having some trouble understanding why a 4th pedal is needed if one of its functions is to act as a damper.
Doesn't that make the "regular" damper pedal redundant ?
If so, why not just replace the damper pedal with this multi-function harmonic pedal ?
Tangent;
This prompted me to look at the Stuart 4th pedal (again).
To my surprise I can't find a definition of just what each of the 4 Stuart pedals actually DO on their web site.
Does anyone here know where those are documented ?
Just curious...
- Philippe Guillaume
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Re: Harmonic pedal
aandrmusic wrote:
I'm having some trouble understanding why a 4th pedal is needed if one of its functions is to act as a damper.
Doesn't that make the "regular" damper pedal redundant ?
If so, why not just replace the damper pedal with this multi-function harmonic pedal ?
With the sustain pedal depressed, you cannot play staccato, whereas you can with the harmonic pedal. That's why it was invented in 1986:
- French: https://www.google.fr/patents/EP0271527...0UCh2fzQCO
- English: https://www.google.fr/patents/EP0271527...0UCh2fzQCO