Topic: Four areas for possible improvement

I only purchased Pianoteq just before the last video competition which I entered. Since then I have spent a good bit of time with it, and feel, as a classical pianist, that I can offer some thoughts that might be of interest.

First of all, it's amazing software. Very impressive what it can do and very impressive to hear the little improvements which have been made over the past few months. The sound quality/tone is fantastic, the playability is generally great and the realism is impressive. I have played all the instruments, but especially the D4 as I find it a little more realistic than the Bluthner (as beautiful as its tone is). However the following observations apply to the Bluthner as well as the Steinway D.

1) Sustain. The sustain is not as long as a real piano. It isn't way off (like pretty much every keyboard I've played, including my Kawai MP8 which is ridiculously short), but it should be longer if it is to match a typical grand, especially a concert grand. When I compare it to my Steinway M, Pianoteq's sustain is much less. Even when I greatly reduce the dynamic range and crank the volume, the sustain still doesn't match my acoustic. I can increase the sustain with the soundboard impedance of course, but this messes up the attack. I've since read about ways to improve this, but even after experimenting a good bit, I couldn't get the attack to sound as good as the original, shorter sustain. I found an old thread about this issue with an earlier version, and it seems that it was fixed or improved back then... so I'm not sure if the sustain was shortened again, or if it never was lengthened quite long enough. Pianoteq's sustain isn't bad, but the long sustain on a concert grand can add so much expressivity.

2) Damper pedal/string resonance. When the damper pedal is depressed and all strings are free to vibrate, the effect is very nice, but could be much more realistic. First the speed that the dampers hit the strings in a grand piano makes a huge difference in sound/volume. The soft/slow pedaling works quite well, and sounds very good, but faster/harder pedaling doesn't have the huge effect it does with a real piano. This effect can add a lot of drama to a passage. If you depress the pedal, then rapidly lift it and immediately depress it again (so that you sustain the sound of the dampers slamming into the strings) you get an explosive sound that rushes through the piano. This isn't at all possible in Pianoteq. This isn't just an odd behavior that wouldn't be used in normal piano playing, but normally it is overshadowed by the fast/loud musical passage that is occurring on top... so in effect the dampers slamming into the strings creates this fantastic background to an even louder foreground (which are the notes). The second part of this damper/resonance issue has more to do with the quality of the resonating string sound. If you depress the damper pedal quietly, hold it, and then hammer out a single high note, on a piano you get this sudden whoosh of resonance. It's almost an explosive sort of sound too. With Pianoteq this effect is much less apparent, and it's also slightly delayed. Also, the quality of this can sound fairly artificial (it can be a weird sound on a real piano, but not quite the same), a little like the high jingling sound you hear in a highly compressed MP3. If you increase the string resonance level a bit, it starts to FEEL a little more realistic, but then the artificial qualities become much more apparent in the sound.

3) Thinness in fast sustained passages/chords. When playing single notes, say in the mid range, the sound is quite good. However when you play two or more notes simultaneously in a chord, this odd thinness becomes apparent. I'm not sure what causes this, but the notes just don't sound as rich and individual... almost as though some of the individual note's sonic properties are being stripped away for the sake of reducing CPU load... but that's a wild guess. It doesn't seem to be a "polyphony" issue as the notes themselves aren't cutting out, and I've got plenty of CPU power and polyphony set high. It is also apparent when playing large fast sustained arpeggios or quick sustained chords across the keyboards range.

4) Higher dynamics. Another time when Pianoteq starts to reveal slight artificial qualities is when playing fff. The greater the dynamics, the brighter the tone, the louder the upper partials. However there is something about these high ringing clusters of sound which start to seem too separate, too clean and individual, and so the normally very slight artificial quality becomes amplified. It's very hard to describe the issue with this sound, so I'll leave it at that! Reducing the hammer hardness a bit and increasing the fundamental tone's volume a bit helps significantly, but only by making the piano have a darker tone (and thus less prominent upper partials).

Anyway, I'll repeat that this software is absolutely fantastic, really phenomenal. I wouldn't bother writing all this except that Pianoteq has come so close to reproducing completely realistic sounding pianos, and I really look forward to hearing them improve that last little bit (which has got to be the hardest bit of all).

Here is video I recorded the same night as the piece I entered into the video competition. Back when I recorded these I increased the sustain on the D4 before completely realizing how it detracted from the attack... and of course since I made this video, the D4 has been improved noticeably. But this piece is a good example of one that really starts to suffer from an unnaturally short sustained tone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q62Zcd8F0u0

All the best,

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

There are several ways of increasing sustain in Pianoteq. Direct sound duration, changing the Impendance, Cutoff and Q...


I can't personally agree with your remarks #3 and #4, though.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

Thank you very much, Nathan, for your detailed feedback and your beautiful performance.

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

NathanShirley wrote:

I can increase the sustain with the soundboard impedance of course, but this messes up the attack.

Try also unison width and direct sound duration. Sound decay has two stages: direct sound and remanent sound. Unison width work via affecting the "shape" of sound decay: you can change it from almost linear to a shape with explicit corner between direct and remanent decay stages. Read also this post.

NathanShirley wrote:

Higher dynamics.

I don't understand what you mean, but try to play with string length, cutoff and Q factor. String length very affects the sound on bass range with higher dynamics.

I highly recommend to read official manual. It provide a lot of useful information how each Pianoteq's control affect the sound: directly and indirectly.

Last edited by Ross (09-03-2015 17:12)
Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

I agree with point 2 which is another feature missing in terms of pedalling but probably more useful in close recording than ambient recordings and as a sound effect.
Concerning point 1: have you tried experimenting a bit with reverbs and mics? The sustain and decay of the piano sound is affected a lot by the room and how you record the sound source. I think it needs a little bit more "body" to it but to me it doesn't seem to be so short compared to a grand or a recording of a grand.

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

Considering that CPU power evolution it's quite stuck in the last years, pianoteq did a very good refinining work in the tone.

Interesting how the atomic limitations of silicon processors, arrive very close of perfection of piano modelling tone.

Last edited by Beto-Music (10-03-2015 14:39)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

Thanks for all the responses. And yes, I've read the manual.

Numbers 3 and 4 are certainly more subtle than 1 and 2, and in some ways it is likely that the thinness of sound I mention is in part related to the short sustain/rapid decay (but I suspect it's only half the reason). I should point out that in the video I linked to above, I had increased the soundboard impedance quite dramatically (roughly 1.5 I think). This resulted in a much more satisfying/realistic sustain. As I mentioned, I later on read about ways to improve the attack, I experimented with these quite a bit but couldn't match the realism of the default pianos in this regard. I would be curious to know if anyone could increase the soundboard impedance quite a lot (or by other means increase the sustain length) and then adjust the other parameters to REALLY match the quality of the original attack.

The thinness I mention is especially apparent when you do a very fast, long arpeggio up the keyboard with the sustain pedal depressed. It certainly sounds good, but the sound thins out rapidly compared to a real piano, where the sound can become absolutely overbearing if you aren't careful... but at the same time it can have such an intense dramatic effect. In reading some of the comments here since purchasing Pianoteq, I remember one commentator describing the phenomenon as sounding "dull." While I am pretty sure it is the same thing I notice, I would not call it dull. Also dissonant chords on Pianoteq somehow sound (very slightly) less dissonant than on a real piano, I think this must have to do with the thinness I describe.

As for number 4, the sound quality at higher dynamics, I think this really just boils down to the basic realism of the piano's timbre. It is quite subtle, and the longer you play Pianoteq the less you notice it, or are bothered by it. But go out and play several real pianos, come back, and there it is again... Still, they've done a really fine job.

"Chopin87", I know what you mean about the effects of near field vs far field mic'ing, and yes, this would have some effect for sure. But the damper effect and sympathetic string effect I described really isn't subtle, it can easily be heard by the audience. And yes, the apparent sustain is also affected by the distance from the piano, reverb, etc, but I'm talking about a really dramatic drop off. Perhaps some of you might want to try matching the volume of Pianoteq to a real piano you have access to. Time the length of sustain on both instruments to compare.

Once again, excellent software. A real pleasure.

Last edited by NathanShirley (10-03-2015 08:50)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

The thinnes was reduced a lot, compared to earlier versions.

Higher strikes (FFF) with sustein pedal on, creates a lot of extra interaction, elaborated and longer reactions, and that would consumes a lot of extra CPU power, and so it's probable that the algorithm computation for these elements needs to be resumed even more.

I once suggested to create a special version of pianoteq, for people with i7 processors only. Or even a option to render the sound (mp3 exchange for exemple) with more elaborated computation, when it's not using in real time.

Last edited by Beto-Music (10-03-2015 18:10)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

Ah yes, this is basically what I thought might be going on. I've noticed that while playing, the CPU usage as reported by Pianoteq (windows always reports much lower CPU usage, not sure why that is) quickly maxes out at around 30 some percent. Even when I play far more sustained notes on top of this, the CPU level doesn't really go up much. So yes, some sort of CPU intense check box or slider might be nice.

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

What an interesting topic and insightful observations!  Out of the 4 areas for possible improvement I identify with #3 the most.  Nowadays (since we sold out acoustic piano) I use Pianoteq much more than an acoustic piano.  While it is great, when I play an acoustic piano, even a low quality one, there is a richness, almost an enveloping richness, when playing multiple notes together that is not totally replicated with Pianoteq as of yet.  While I would not describe it as dull, to me it may be described as "too clean" or a bit "clinical".

Could it be due to the limitation of processing power?   I certainly hope this is the case because it points to an ultimate resolution with the constantly increasing processing power available.

Another possibility could be the limitation of the speakers / monitors / sound system, that somehow a pair of speakers emitting sound from two points is inadequate in reproducing the vibration of many long individual steel strings, each vibrating differently and interacting with a large sound board at a different location within the piano.  In the audiophile world they frequently talk about the speakers' ability to maintain its clarity and transparency in complex musical passages; they also talk about the speakers' ability to sound "big" or life scale.  If this is a contributing factor the solution may well be outside the scope of Pianoteq's modelling algorithm.

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

My subjective impression is that what may be perceived as a thin sound comes from a default mic position that is a little more distant than I would like. In other words, the recordings used as a basis for modelling the partial structure were created with mics that were several feet from the instrument, to create a more "classical" perspective. which is very different from the sound that we hear sitting at a piano or listening to many recordings. I worry that, when we move the Pianoteq mics closer, the programming assumes that the relative amplitude of partials and the mechanical noises such as the keybed thump, remain the same, but when sitting at a piano, or when mics are moved closer on a real piano, we hear something else entirely, partly because we then hear the subtleties of the air vibrations bouncing around in the case.

I do understand that relatively distant mics help, when modelling, to create a clear rendering of the partial structure. My vote would be to use closer recordings, and then to model from there. The amplitude of near partials or the bandwidth of partials might then be greater--there would be more of a mess--so programming the response to velocity might be more difficult. But having the closer sound for soft notes, and for the attack in general, might more than compensate for problems with harder attacks. I can imagine a methodology that starts with close recordings, but limits the amplitude of some partials as velocity increases, assuming that the amplitude is not linear for all partials and all transient and mechanical noises. Could close. medium, and distant recordings be made with varying velocities, and then the programming adjusted to meet the derived data? (Theory is clean; reality is messy?)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (11-03-2015 06:10)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

The Moore's Law unfortunately is no longer a reality, and don't even close to it.
Think about how many yeas the PC market it's stuck in i7 processor.

Maybe someone can post a graphic of the processors evolution in the last 7 or 8 years, but I presume the evoution in processing power was a misery compared to "the good old days".


I believe the actual recording technique, used to create a modeled piano for pianoteq, uses more than two channels, and mics in very diferente positions (close and distant from piano).

Last edited by Beto-Music (11-03-2015 14:55)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

All about processing power or problem with micing is incorrect. The missing link is we are hearing digital sample and algorithm which is lack of the dynamic ranges we usually heard and feel from real piano strings. Someone need to research on adding vinyl or analog into pianoteq, only then we can get it right sounds.

Piano in Blues is one example and without the analog effect it's way too thin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x93hUqPpW4A

V2 is indeed an improvement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd1-wRRQpvo

Last edited by proyb (11-03-2015 15:07)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

In actual technology, Vinyl was an innovative technology and someone did recorded Bosendorfer recording which is unbelievable close to player seat and all that bass delivers wonderful vibration to my headphone.

Last edited by proyb (11-03-2015 15:13)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

I like to utilize u-he Satin after Pianoteq to add tape saturation and artifacts. Better than vinyl as far as I'm concerned.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

The real world do not have the hiss and distortions of vinyl and tape.

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

But it has all that white noise coming from the outside, cars, idiots screaming at each other, dogs barking, etc... I'd take hiss and tape saturation any time of the day or night!

Hard work and guts!

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

Okie as requested.
https://soundcloud.com/james-lei-1/bose...cert-grand

Is this a virtual instrument or live recording or hybrid recording? Only that we can't play that level of dB on our DAW without filtering or we might go deaf since piano was originally invented to play in the open.

Except one thing, I believe none of the MIDI keyboards are capable of that level of playing, so my best bet is on VAX MIDI keyboard with Hi-Res velocity which Pianoteq supported.

Last edited by proyb (12-03-2015 14:41)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

Can you filter off the idiots, the cars, the screems and the dogs ?
(joking around...)


Here a nice example of sound restoration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab5x-5qkM0o


But I bet some people want such kiss and cracks to add in digital recordings.


By the way, what about create a Pianoteq LP collection?
It's probable that listening to a LP most people would not realise it was made by digital modelled emulation of a real piano

EvilDragon wrote:

But it has all that white noise coming from the outside, cars, idiots screaming at each other, dogs barking, etc... I'd take hiss and tape saturation any time of the day or night!

Last edited by Beto-Music (12-03-2015 14:42)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

Beto-Music wrote:

By the way, what about create a Pianoteq LP collection?
It's probable that listening to a LP most people would not realise it was made by digital modelled emulation of a real piano

Sure it would also be nice to have a built in emulation of vintage eq and compression devices, MIDI edit, a video capture ability for realtime recording and YouTube live streaming, etc...

You can make your recording sound retro using a large variety of top grade third party software, and it is a huge separate topic how to make your virtual piano to sound bomb in terms of what you actually looking for.

I prefer Modartt team to focus on their main area - making a decent virtual piano model. They already have the effects section with just some essential fx to make it sound great right out of the box - thats enough.

I may suggest you to go to Waves website to check their analog devices emulation plugins, also the Speakerphone is worth mentioning.

Last edited by AKM (16-03-2015 02:11)

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

I was being a bit more literal..

I refer about record some performances, using pianoteq 5 and the best colaborator pianists, into a LP, a vynil record. A limited edition.

Just a idea, cause the actual prices for LP production are very high today.

AKM wrote:
Beto-Music wrote:

By the way, what about create a Pianoteq LP collection?
It's probable that listening to a LP most people would not realise it was made by digital modelled emulation of a real piano

Sure it would also be nice to have a built in emulation of vintage eq and compression devices, MIDI edit, a video capture ability for realtime recording and YouTube live streaming, etc...

You can make your recording sound retro using a large variety of top grade third party software, and it is a huge separate topic how to make your virtual piano to sound bomb in terms of what you actually looking for.

I prefer Modartt team to focus on their main area - making a decent virtual piano model. They already have the effects section with just some essential fx to make it sound great right out of the box - thats enough.

I may suggest you to go to Waves website to check their analog devices emulation plugins, also the Speakerphone is not worth mentioning.

Re: Four areas for possible improvement

Ah, I see, did not understand you right.