Topic: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

Hi all,

I'm noticing a kind of slight distorsion when playing piano on PTQ5 at default settings (even velocity curve etc), no matter whether I crank my monitor's volume all the way up or down, it'll still happen whereas it doesn't happen with any of the several piano libraries I also use, so I'm discarding monitor and soundcard issues..

My piano setup (playing mostly classical music):

- Yamaha P85 as MIDI controller
- Scarlett 2i4
- ESI Near05 and M-Audio BX5 (Monitors)
- Laptop i3 2310m 8Gb RAM (PTQ config: 44.1Kh, 128samples/2.9ms, polyphony auto-optimistic, performance index 36), no changes when I put down extra buffer size.

I've seen there were a couple related posts but no solution were offered.. well, I could turn down the main volume in PTQ but it then would affect the dynamics which I would have to change as well (extra tweaking) besides the low output I'd get (not a real solution..)

Anymore people faced the same problem and found out how to solve it properly?

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (24-02-2015 15:17)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

I have experienced a similar phenomenon.  However it is not consistent.  And I notice these changes, for the most part, at night.  The only thing we share is the Scarlett 2i4.  I do have an older computer but have no latency issues at all.  And for what it is worth I am in the habit of rebooting my system before I practice/play.

I am curious if others share the experience.

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

Why don't you think that is a real solution?

I generally turn off the limiter, turn the volume down by 10 or even 12 dB and turn the dynamics up to about 60dB.  Then I have to turn my amp up quite a bit.  I also remove any compression and reverb.

I do this because all the presets seem to be set up to sound like a recorded piano in a different space rather than one in the room that I'm actually playing.  It makes a HUGE difference in realism to my ears.

I do have to remember to turn my amp down before you play any recorded music but that's the price you pay for uncompressed realistic sound.  Recordings are compressed to hell.  Even the old, supposedly good ones.

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

Dibbs wrote:

Why don't you think that is a real solution?

Thanks for your suggestion Dibbs.

I think Moddart has set up the patches as they are (volume, dynamics etc) cause that's how it's supposed to be the most realistic experience when playing the piano, of course each user can then adapt these parameters to its taste and pleasure but I wouldn't change anything since the playability now is just perfect to me and I wouldn't like to mess up with volumes and dynamics..

However, I've already tried freezing the volume to permanent -10dB and the problem was that whatever instrument patch I loaded up, it would show up with this -10dB, no matter whether it was originally set to say i.e. 0dB or -2dB (BTW the same applies to the dynamics and touch curves).
What I am trying to say here IMHO, is that since it's impossible to preserve a fix "parameter ratio" among the different patches,  turning just the volume down to -10 doesn't represet a true solution.

A true solution in my opinion would be to have a kind of master volume which can affect to the general output dB without having to change every single different volume..

Cheers!

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (20-02-2015 20:23)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

You can freeze individual parameters like that.  Third box along in the right hand bar towards the top of the screen.  Next to the save icon.

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

Dibbs wrote:

You can freeze individual parameters

Hi Dibbs,

Actually that is what I was trying to say in my previous post, I edited it to show the word "freezing" but it's what I did and I also explained what the issue after that was.

Freezing parameters is a cool option, yet not a global solution.

I know I can try reducing the volume to -10 in certain patches (can survive with this), but freezing the volume won't make the trick for all patches since every patch has got different parameters, I hope I'm being good enough at explaining this..

BR!

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

The way I would do it is run Pianoteq in a host rather than standalone. This way you get a master volume on the instrument track.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

EvilDragon wrote:

run Pianoteq in a host rather than standalone

Hi EvilDragon, I've just tried it and in fact it works, thanks. It would be nice if Moddart created that extra volume tab in the same GUI for the ease of use.

I'd also like to point out that I'm suffering the same issue with the velocity curves , since I set up my own one based on a  45º line-curve D4 patch, and then freezed it. I later realised that there are instruments with different factory curves which don't sound nice with my freezed set up.. so, for now no solution for that too (except saving modiefied patches with the curves resulted from the addition of both the own cuve and the factory curve..)

Comments on that? Anyone facing it too?

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (21-02-2015 19:50)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

For that I would also deal with running Pianoteq in a host and modifying the velocity curve with a 3rd party plugin (say in Reaper I can write a JS FX script for that, for example).

Hard work and guts!

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

EvilDragon wrote:

running Pianoteq in a host and modifying the velocity curve with a 3rd party plugin

Hmmm you're right, it didn't occur to me, that will definetely make the trick, thanks again.

However, since I usually play PTQ as standalone I find it a bit tedioius if I have to open a host+the plugin everytime I want to play the piano.. I really hope these issues will be revised and considered for the upcoming PTQ updates.

I must say the rest of the programm is simply amazing, thanks Moddart!

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (22-02-2015 00:12)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

This is why you can save your piano setup as a template project. And some DAWs (for example, again, Reaper) can be set up to start with a particular project. This means that you can run the DAW instead Pianoteq standalone, and it would open a project with Pianoteq already loaded and ready to play.

Really no difference to just running Pianoteq standalone.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Distorsioned (loudness) piano sound

EvilDragon wrote:

This is why you can save your piano setup as a template project

Yeah, you're right again, mate you're a bag of ideas!

BTW, I was thinking again of the loudness issue and I found out that the monitors I use for PTQ are connected to the unbalanced outputs of the 2i4, and was wondering whether it might be the reason PTQ sometimes sounds distorsioned.. I'd try to connect them to the balanced output but then I'd have to buy new cables (or adapters)

I know balanced signal behaves better against signal noise and jamming (as long as the right cables are used), but any ideas on whether it can result on a slightly distorsioned sound when playing several notes + damper?

EDIT1:

Just made the try, I've tried with both balanced and unbalanced outputs of my 2i4 and the result didn't vary, still a high frequency distortion when played several notes.
What I realised is that when I plugged in my speakers 2 input cables each speaker (comming in from both balanced and unbalanced outputs of my interface) the sound comming out through my speakers was a bit lower and therefore clearer and with no distortion (strange?).

I also tried more MIDI interfaces in case it was a MIDI signal quality error

Aditionally, when playing a MIDI file through PTQ5 the sound is fine and no distortion is heard, this issue is driving me crazy!

EDIT2:

I have been comparing PTQ to other sample based pianos in a DAW, each a track in order to compare output signals and in fact PTQ signal wasn't clipping on my DAW but it was always about 8Db louder than the rest of pianos (which don't distortion when playing loudly).

Conclusion: PTQ standard output signal is higher than the rest of programs, even if in the volume indicator bar still seems to be ok (green signal), so if you have set up your hardware to work properly with the other stuff, you will have to rethink it in order to suit PTQ too.

I still think that messing with the volume of each patch without fiddling with the dynamics is not a good deal, therefore I would rather have a main output volume so that I can keep the original different volumes of each patch..

Does it make sense?

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (25-02-2015 11:09)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz