Topic: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

We all love Pianoteq and its unique playability which really makes it a pleasure to practice and play in a home studio context for instance. But there are still some improvements to be made for the picky pianist to be truly satisfied...

On my side in order of priority:

General sound issues:
1. Better 'key repeat with the pedal down' sound (same note played repeatedly, which achieves a very special and dynamic sound on a real grand, esp. in the lower octaves). Not that realistic compared to what is achieved with the resonance, and this certainly reduces the playability. For instance Chopin's Op. 28/15 -"raindrop"- sounds a bit dull on Pianoteq because of this...(the Bluethner gets it better than the other models).
2. The attack sound in general could still be improved, although it is fairly realistic as it is...still lacking some 'bite' I would say.
3. the soft pedal: I would like an option to tweak the sound a little (on a grand it doesn't just make the sound softer but also changes it, makes it more 'delicate' in some cases, I would like Pianoteq to model this better).

Other ideas:
4. I find the 'repedalling' effect a little difficult to notice.
5. We would always be happy with more modeled piano brands obviously...for me a few high end Yamahas and Bosies thank you :-)

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

If I can suggest to the Pianoteq's team, for a future version, if it is possible:

A true parametric EQ, with the 3 classical parameters (Frequency, Gain and Q) could be helpfull to reduce some unpleasant frequencies due to our speaker systems or rooms without the need of additional external EQ.
I find the actual EQ not user friendly. Just my opinion

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

fntms wrote:

4. I find the 'repedalling' effect a little difficult to notice.

Do you have a continous sustain pedal?

Hard work and guts!

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

stamkorg wrote:

A true parametric EQ, with the 3 classical parameters (Frequency, Gain and Q) could be helpfull to reduce some unpleasant frequencies due to our speaker systems or rooms without the need of additional external EQ.

Pianoteq's EQ and external EQ are different things, because Pianoteq's one works in early pre-processing stage, not in post-processing. From manual:

The equalizer works in pre-processing (modifying the model before computing sound).
The fact that it works in pre-processing allows automatic volume compensation: for
example, when increasing the medium spectrum, it will increase the medium
frequencies in each note while keeping the natural balance across the keyboard. In
other words, the middle notes will not get suddenly louder than the other ones. Another
advantage of pre-processing is that it allows very fine variation in the EQ curve, unlike
on a standard 3 band EQ.

Last edited by Ross (04-01-2015 22:12)
Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

EvilDragon wrote:
fntms wrote:

4. I find the 'repedalling' effect a little difficult to notice.

Do you have a continous sustain pedal?

Yes

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

A good preamp section for the EPs.

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

I find the distortion effect excellent for EPs when dialled in with taste.

Hard work and guts!

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

There is a little bit more than distortion (different type of saturation depending on the model used, noise, dampening of certain frequencies).
It is possible to build similar sounding instruments by tweaking the interface but it is not that easy for somebody who doesn't actually know how the preamp shaped the sound or what type of built-in tremolo is suitable for each specific EP.
It would make more sense to me to have all these controls in a preamp section, just like the one you find on the real EPs, making the tweaking effortless and providing a virtual model more close to the original.

Last edited by Chopin87 (05-01-2015 12:42)
"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

fntms wrote:

3. the soft pedal: I would like an option to tweak the sound a little (on a grand it doesn't just make the sound softer but also changes it, makes it more 'delicate' in some cases, I would like Pianoteq to model this better).

- I almost hear no difference while using it.

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Ross wrote:

Pianoteq's EQ and external EQ are different things, because Pianoteq's one works in early pre-processing stage, not in post-processing.

Thank you, I hadn't seen that

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

I'd love to have the "twang" when the note starts... this is something I really miss in ptq. The sound tends to go Taaaaaaaaaaa, in a way that is too straight and slightly rigid for me. There should be a chaotic upsetting of tuning, harmonics and amplitude before the tone settles and becomes pure...
And I don't yet hear wood and metal vibrating in the sound, just an approximation of it...
Maybe also some mechanical noise right before the hit of the hammer...
And it'd be nice to be able to exchange the hammer noise between models, say apply the YC5 hammer attack noise to D4...
I also second the idea of a true equalizer, one that doesn't mess with the partials like the present one does.
Last, it would be useful to have a command to globally turn on all the notes in the spectrum profile window (pro version) for editing. Now it's a bit tedious to go and double click each key one by one...

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

robsogge wrote:

Last, it would be useful to have a command to globally turn on all the notes in the spectrum profile window (pro version) for editing. Now it's a bit tedious to go and double click each key one by one...

One way to do this is loading a preset having no notes altered, freeze spectrum profile, and then load the one you want to zero out. Don't forget to clear the freeze panel afterwards of course...

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Gilles wrote:
robsogge wrote:

Last, it would be useful to have a command to globally turn on all the notes in the spectrum profile window (pro version) for editing. Now it's a bit tedious to go and double click each key one by one...

One way to do this is loading a preset having no notes altered, freeze spectrum profile, and then load the one you want to zero out. Don't forget to clear the freeze panel afterwards of course...

thanks Gilles, but that's not what I mean... you know that in order to change the spectrum of a note you have to make the corresponding little square turn yellow double clicking on it. That's the function I'd like to be automated... or maybe I have misunderstood your reply...

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

robsogge wrote:

I'd love to have the "twang" when the note starts... this is something I really miss in ptq. The sound tends to go Taaaaaaaaaaa, in a way that is too straight and slightly rigid for me. There should be a chaotic upsetting of tuning, harmonics and amplitude before the tone settles and becomes pure...

I agree, and that might the same issue as the dull 'pedal down repeat' sound...no twang where it should be more and more amplified...
It can be modestly improved with the use of some convolution reverbs (I use free ones).

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

robsogge wrote:
Gilles wrote:
robsogge wrote:

Last, it would be useful to have a command to globally turn on all the notes in the spectrum profile window (pro version) for editing. Now it's a bit tedious to go and double click each key one by one...

One way to do this is loading a preset having no notes altered, freeze spectrum profile, and then load the one you want to zero out. Don't forget to clear the freeze panel afterwards of course...

thanks Gilles, but that's not what I mean... you know that in order to change the spectrum of a note you have to make the corresponding little square turn yellow double clicking on it. That's the function I'd like to be automated... or maybe I have misunderstood your reply...

I see. In that case you could always start with a model where all little squares are selected. You have to do it by hand but only once...

But yes, you're right, this could be a good option. I guess it's not already there because most spectrum changes are localised to only a few notes, and also preselecting all squares cancels the interpolation between changed notes that is needed in some cases.

Last edited by Gilles (06-01-2015 00:25)

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

The interpolation scheme that the Pianoteq team developed is a mathematical wonder to me.  Having worked with additive synthesis in the early '80s and then later with early sampling technology makes me appreciate  their ingenuity.

To wit:   Toggling a "yellow square" to "on" at the bottom of a single note in the spectrum note editor will allow the user to change the level of the fundamental and relative harmonics of a single note.  And, as it is, there will be an effect on adjacent notes over a given range.  What some may not know is that in lieu of toggling all of the yellow squares, the note RANGE over which the editing of one note will affect adjacent notes is determined by the distance you would select two adjacent squares - each to the side of the one you are editing.  This allows the interpolation note RANGE to be determined by the user.

Absolute kudos to such a controlled mathematical algorithm.  (however it works!)

Lanny

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

LTECpiano wrote:

The interpolation scheme that the Pianoteq team developed is a mathematical wonder to me.  Having worked with additive synthesis in the early '80s and then later with early sampling technology makes me appreciate  their ingenuity.

To wit:   Toggling a "yellow square" to "on" at the bottom of a single note in the spectrum note editor will allow the user to change the level of the fundamental and relative harmonics of a single note.  And, as it is, there will be an effect on adjacent notes over a given range.  What some may not know is that in lieu of toggling all of the yellow squares, the note RANGE over which the editing of one note will affect adjacent notes is determined by the distance you would select two adjacent squares - each to the side of the one you are editing.  This allows the interpolation note RANGE to be determined by the user.

Absolute kudos to such a controlled mathematical algorithm.  (however it works!)

Lanny

Not sure I understand that FULLY, but it would SEEM to me that the affected "adjacent notes" should be those that are harmonically related, rather than those that are merely neighbors - e.g. octaves, fifths and thirds away, not a small number (1, 2 or 3) of semitones away. 
Affecting a Gb just because it is adjacent to a G or A that you are editing seems undesirable.
Again, I may have not understood correctly or completely what you wrote.

Last edited by aandrmusic (15-01-2015 23:03)

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

good morning

on my side the implementation of GPU acceleration would be interesting, enabling (or improving the possibility) for some of us to re-dispose outdated notebook / netbooks for the exclusive use of Pianoteq

it would be also interesting enabling midi-out in Pianoteq so to make possible to bridge other software instruments without the need to use Jack or other virtual midi port software

like other people I would like additional instruments addons (such a Fazioli addon) and the possibility in Pianoteq stage to tune sustain pedal action

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

For the futur, I would like to see the developement of a remote control for Pianoteq (for Ipad and Android).
This way you could control Pianoteq on your tablet via Wifi, without the need of a monitor + keybord + mouse or a laptop.
Just a barebone pc should be enough.
You just star the pc and you control anything on your tablet...

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

You can already assign almost all controls to a MIDI message, so a great amount of control is already possible with Pianoteq...

Hard work and guts!

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

fntms wrote:

3. the soft pedal: I would like an option to tweak the sound a little (on a grand it doesn't just make the sound softer but also changes it, makes it more 'delicate' in some cases, I would like Pianoteq to model this better).

We have just released version 5.1.4. It doesn't contain any new option to tweak the soft pedal sound, but we improved the D4 in the direction you mentioned, making the sound more 'delicate', less muted and more singing when using una corda. The D4 has also been slightly revoiced, in particular in the pianissimo to piano range. We hope you will enjoy these small improvements.

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

D4 and Bluethner are very good in Pianoteq 5. But I would like in future see more realistic K2 and U4. Currently lt it has slightly synthetic sound. When I play or listen most of website's demos, I feel that this is a synthesizer, not an acoustic piano (I don't feel that on D4 and Bluethner). K2 has beautiful and realistic chords, but unrealistic single notes. U4 has very realistic upper range (listen Italian Polka from website), but unrealistic below. I can't describe this in more formal way, sorry. Maybe this is just my taste. So, this is not a feature request, just my thoughts.

Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

The microphone / output panel of the GUI posts various settings for microphones when pulling up different presets but only for outputs 1 and 2.  I would like to have a standard QWERTY copy and paste for that matrix so that you could copy any one of the preset boxes and paste them into any box of the other three rows for outputs 3,4, and 5 for those of us who may be using five discreet audio amplification channels.

Thanks,

Lanny

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:
fntms wrote:

3. the soft pedal: I would like an option to tweak the sound a little (on a grand it doesn't just make the sound softer but also changes it, makes it more 'delicate' in some cases, I would like Pianoteq to model this better).

We have just released version 5.1.4. It doesn't contain any new option to tweak the soft pedal sound, but we improved the D4 in the direction you mentioned, making the sound more 'delicate', less muted and more singing when using una corda. The D4 has also been slightly revoiced, in particular in the pianissimo to piano range. We hope you will enjoy these small improvements.

The new model for una corda is much more realistic indeed! More contrast with the normal sound, and a much more singing tone at soft velocity. I guess what's new is that the free strings not touched by the hammers are allowed to add some sort of sympathetic resonance. Will this model be included in other pianos in the future?

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Gilles wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:
fntms wrote:

3. the soft pedal: I would like an option to tweak the sound a little (on a grand it doesn't just make the sound softer but also changes it, makes it more 'delicate' in some cases, I would like Pianoteq to model this better).

We have just released version 5.1.4. It doesn't contain any new option to tweak the soft pedal sound, but we improved the D4 in the direction you mentioned, making the sound more 'delicate', less muted and more singing when using una corda. The D4 has also been slightly revoiced, in particular in the pianissimo to piano range. We hope you will enjoy these small improvements.

The new model for una corda is much more realistic indeed! More contrast with the normal sound, and a much more singing tone at soft velocity. I guess what's new is that the free strings not touched by the hammers are allowed to add some sort of sympathetic resonance. Will this model be included in other pianos in the future?

Great you like it! Yes, we plan to update progressiviely the other pianos too.

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Did not checked the last update since I'm using exclusively Bluethner. While trying the left pedal a while ago I found it worth using and hope to see the things to be changed in future. So how did it work before this 5.1.4 update and still working on other pianos except D4? Did it just make the usual sound a few decibels quieter with no remodelling, i.e. just one string involved, or even 2 strings in the middle position for continuous controllers? I definitely request some advanced approach for the left pedal because it is just essential to have it usable.

Last edited by AKM (24-01-2015 17:07)

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

AKM wrote:

So how did it work before this 5.1.4 update and still working on other pianos except D4? Did it just make the usual sound a few decibels quieter with no remodelling, i.e. just one string involved, or even 2 strings in the middle position for continuous controllers? I definitely request some advanced approach for the left pedal because it is just essential to have it usable.

Actually, it is a modification of the parameters of the model, not of the model itself. It is more an aesthetic choice than anything else, which happens too on a real acoustic grand: there are many different ways to ajust the una corda: how much is the left string struck in triple choirs; do the strings match again the grooves in the hammers (not recommended) or not; if not, how is the felt "voiced" between the grooves?

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Thank you very much for the reply. Ok, I see, I trust you more then myself in this topic. From my experience as a pianist and a listener (and it is just huge), left pedal sure used by pianists for aesthetic purposes, not just to make it quieter or easier to play PPP - it should add some otherwordly colour, usually it sound slightly rugged due to the felt quality as you mentioned - as far as I could understand it is less teared and compressed on the hammers in the places where it hit that una string. With maybe very few exceptions when you play, say, Chopin, in every one of his pieces you may find a phrase, or some melody in some reprise that you want to play that extremely intimate way. Please, please, please do some more investment in the development of the left pedal algorithms! (Bluethner especially, cause I use it alot, lol)

Last edited by AKM (24-01-2015 18:34)

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

AKM wrote:

Thank you very much for the reply. Ok, I see, I trust you more then myself in this topic. From my experience as a pianist and a listener (and it is just huge), left pedal sure used by pianists for aesthetic purposes, not just to make it quieter or easier to play PPP - it should add some otherwordly colour, usually it sound slightly rugged due to the felt quality as you mentioned - as far as I could understand it is less teared and compressed on the hammers in the places where it hit that una string. With maybe very few exceptions when you play, say, Chopin, in every one of his pieces you may find a phrase, or some melody in some reprise that you want to play that extremely intimate way. Please, please, please do some more investment in the development of the left pedal algorithms! (Bluethner especially, cause I use it alot, lol)

In any case, it would be interesting to know if you like the modification brought to the D4 una corda.

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Ok, got it, should install right now.

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Tried it and I like this new update of the una corda pedal. Now it's not just a simple dynamic change because there is a clear, different, warmer timbre and it is more noticeable even at the default level (I increased the same knob to 0.40-0.50 in the previous model). Much closer to the original IMHO. Thanks everybody!

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Ok, gave it some test. Can't be 100% sure in my perception because just checked it compared to if you use it at least for a week extensively you just know the things from your guts, it became more then just some your opinion. From the first glance yes, it works, on D4, especially in the middle register, on highs it is a very subtle difference to my taste, same for the base. For my taste I feel that it is still not enough for me. But you know what? I went to my real grand, tried to play, and, what a surprise, did not hear the difference this time also! It is quite late where I live, I'll give it a more extensive test tomorrow. But for now I'd personally like it to add more "weakness" to the sound. Though, I repeat, I'm not 100% sure about what I'm saying this time, maybe it is really perfect right now. Same for the Bluethner - there IS the difference. The fact that it is still a digital model also able to fool me.

p.s. BTW in general my thought process is not that I compare Ptq with a real grand - rather I compare it with a 'recording' of a real grand.

...listening to some Michelangeli archive video recording right now - something changing slightly other way, it's a kind of equalization when he uses the una corda, the highs are obviously get cut, kind of...

Last edited by AKM (24-01-2015 20:14)

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

BTW, don't forget that:
- the una corda pedal (in Pianoteq) is progressive,
- its effect at maximum pedal depressing is controlled by the "Soft Pedal" parameter in the Voicing panel.

@Chopin87: glad you like it!

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

- its effect at maximum pedal depressing is controlled by the "Soft Pedal" parameter in the Voicing panel.

Ah, I see, could check it in the trial version of Standard, I've got a Stage license.

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

We have just released version 5.1.4. It doesn't contain any new option to tweak the soft pedal sound, but we improved the D4 in the direction you mentioned, making the sound more 'delicate', less muted and more singing when using una corda. The D4 has also been slightly revoiced, in particular in the pianissimo to piano range. We hope you will enjoy these small improvements.

Yes, I do.

How about taking the electric pianos to the next level now ?!

Last edited by Modellingoptimist (25-01-2015 11:18)
formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Re: 5.1.3 areas for improvement?

Many thanks for treating my request! I've changed my setup (from a Numa Nero to a C3XSH, quite a jump) and so I've lost my bearings a little but I must say the una corda now feels good, a little 'nasal' or pinched (that's how I like it), really close to the feel you get on some grands.
Thanks again, now back to velocity curve calibration...(feels great to be back with Pianoteq after using the CFX sample from the Yamaha SH, which although it sounds terrific lacks in resonance and pp/ff nuance for classical).