Topic: Best keyboard with aftertouch

Hi,

I have played the Kawai VPC-1 and I think it's great. One of the best, if not the best for playing Pianoteq (I have not tried everything on the market).

However, if I want to control a (software or hardware) synthesizer, or Pianoteq's Clavichord it would be nice to have a keyboard with AfterTouch. I understand for playing piano an aftertouch keyboard can never be the ideal solution.

But what in your opinions is the best keyboard controller in terms of the best possible compromise between having AfterTouch and good weight/balance/touch/feel/responsiveness for playing Pianoteq's Piano sounds?

I will be happy enough with just Channel Aftertouch. I don't know much keyboards with Polyphonic Aftertouch.

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

no opinions?

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

There is a discussion here:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much...touch.html

You can get piano-type actions with aftertouch. To my knowledge, most use Fatar actions (Studiologic, Nord Stage 2, Kurzweil PC3-8; Physis). There is also the Korg Kronos 88 with a not-so-great action (in my opinion).

Piano action is subjective. You really need to try it out - and in this case, for both the piano feel and for the aftertouch response, e.g. whether it is gradual or "on/off".

Really though, is aftertouch worth having instead of having a premium action as on the VPC-1? Personally I would go for the Kawai. You might consider a second midi keyboard with aftertouch. I've read that the Akai MPK-261 has a nice semi-weighted action. I haven't tried it yet myself however.

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

I have an old Kurzweil MIDIBOARD that has very good feel and polyphonic aftertouch. Paid $500 in 2007. If you can find one and you don't want to use it on stage ('way too heavy) it's an option.

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

If you want to play clavichord, you should really be looking for polyphonic aftertouch.

On that instrument, each finger can pitch-bend its note, independently of other fingers.

A true nightmare (IMHO)!

.        Charles

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

or a true delight ! :-)

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

I think my playing technique can handle independent polyphonic aftertouch quite well.
But keyboards with polyphonic aftertouch are extremely rare and/or expensive.

Another problem with Poly Aftertouch is the enormeous amount of data that can easily overload the limited bandwith of a standard MIDI cable leading to timing problems or choking.

That's why I would already be happy with simple Channel Aftertouch, giving me much more choice on the market.

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

Sure but it's completely different on a real clavichord: you'd be lucky if you're playing everything in tune since any pressure affects the pitch. I recently had the chance to play one and it's really, really hard to be in tune when playing chords. But that's part of the beauty of it. And being able to add vibrato just on one note inside a chord is an amazing experience... You understand why Bach was so enthusiast about this instrument. Except for the sound level: you should never play for more than 10 persons and they'd better be close to you ! :-)

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

m.tarenskeen wrote:

Another problem with Poly Aftertouch is the enormeous amount of data that can easily overload the limited bandwith of a standard MIDI cable leading to timing problems or choking.

Must people always repeat this? It is not 1986 any more!! Equipment is not using the sort of rubbish UARTs and Z80 microprocessors that we had to put up with back then.


I had a Kurzweil Midiboard but I sold it and bought an Kawai VPC1 actually!
The Kurzweil was too heavy and tedious to program.

I have a Mellotron M400D with poly aftertouch.

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

feline1 wrote:
m.tarenskeen wrote:

Another problem with Poly Aftertouch is the enormeous amount of data that can easily overload the limited bandwith of a standard MIDI cable leading to timing problems or choking.

It is not 1986 any more!! Equipment is not using the sort of rubbish UARTs and Z80 microprocessors that we had to put up with back then.

Sure, a lot has improved since 1986. But the MIDI standard hasn't changed. A MIDI interface is still a serial interface with a 31250 bits/seconds baudrate. One note-on message takes around one millisecond, a 6 note chord 6 milliseconds (well, actuallly less due to the midi running status trick), and then you don't even use your polyphonic aftertouch yet.

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

I just heard about this:
http://www.cme-pro.com/xkey-specs/
While a little limited in size, the new 37 keys model could do the job for a clavichord.
If the Neupert model we have in Pianoteq would need 61 keys (5 octaves), this is not the case for a lot of clavichords, who were limited to 4 octaves or even less, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavichord
Anyway, let's hope they will make a 49 and/or a 61 keys later !

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

I have the Xkey25.

This thread is titled "Best keyboard with aftertouch". The Xkey does indeed have polyphonic aftertouch, but it is no way an absolute "best keyboard" - altho it could be, relatively, the "best keyboard to throw into your backpack for something to do when you arrive at the top of Mont Blanc. Or at Parnassus. Or somewhere like that".

The main problem is that the action is probably going to be completely alien to what you (and your muscle memory) are used to with a piano, or a synth, or almost any keyboard hitherto - it is not based on a pivot. The action is like the space bar on a computer keyboard. In addition the actual travel of the keys is little more than a space bar, if that. The result is that it is very difficult to play evenly, whether different keys successively, the same key repeatedly, or chords - the MIDI note-on velocities that emerge have a spread that is not conducive to producing the even sound that you have spent hours, weeks, years working to refine - not with Pianoteq, not with the most expressive of other virtual instruments such as SampleModeling's. I do not claim the situation is hopeless, merely that such hope could come with the cost of a lot of practice adjusting to it. I bought it in the end because the control software eventually got ported to Windows, and I had read that it allowed individual keys to be adjusted in various ways, including assignment of one of 6 velocity curves (4 user-defined) differently to each key. The control software is terrific in many ways, but unfortunately cannot overcome the basic problem of the limited ballistics of the keys; that is your mission (if you choose to accept...).

The implementation of poly pressure I find more tractable, albeit with the same basic limitation as the key ballistics. Using it purposefully requires further cultivation of your keyboard technique. If you thought you knew subtlety, you may discover that this is a recursive notion. However, once mastered, the software lets you choose between having initial pressure at zero, or (having read so far, you will enjoy this) the note-on velocity. And I have to confirm that seeing polyphonic MIDI messages streaming thru MIDI monitor analyzer software is a novelty. But shortlived, lasting only until you decide to record it into your DAW. None of the ones I tried (4 or 5 I think) were able to display the data in lanes as they do for editing MIDI CC messages - the data is recorded ok, but is not available for friendly editing. Perhaps the DAW developers have never managed to find a polyphonic aftertouch unicorn gizmo to test with... Speculation apart, the practical workaround is to remap poly aftertouch into a convenient CC somewhere between the Xkeys and the DAW.

On other hand, simply to look at, the Xkeys is simply fabulous - a really lovely piece of industrial design (IMO). And now that you can get it in 6 different colours, it has transmogrified from kind-of functional wanna-be to the Higher level of bling, I mean, metonymical potential in some social semiotic system or other (as Claude Levi-Strauss would probably not quite have put it). Cheap at the price, if you ask me.

Why did I bother? Bricolage. I have a rare 25-key TouchKeys kit which needed to be installed on a keyboard, and it just happened to find Xkeys as a temporary resting place. Ironic, really, as TouchKeys was meant exclusively to add virtual polyphonic aftertouch to existing keyboards. (It does quite a lot more now - but I doubt the designer ever envisaged the kit with its circuit boards would end up, as it has done here, in a discarded, much hacked-over fridge compartment door. Yes, folks, bricolage is fun; it's like composing - reusing those same old parts over and over again ).

And now, back to topic.

Last edited by hyper.real (17-01-2015 23:42)

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

Hey, great review! Thanks a lot for sharing!
So I'd better put my own fingers on the thing before buying it as well...
This being said, old actions were often very, very short, be it a clavichord, harpsichord or early pianofortes. Where current pianos have from 8 mm to 1 cm or more (correct me if I am wrong), most of those ancient keyboards had about 5 mm or less. The clavichord I had the chance to play (from early 1700) had a very, very short action... unless you were using some "bebung" of course!

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

Luc Henrion wrote:

I just heard about this:
http://www.cme-pro.com/xkey-specs/
While a little limited in size, the new 37 keys model could do the job for a clavichord.
If the Neupert model we have in Pianoteq would need 61 keys (5 octaves), this is not the case for a lot of clavichords, who were limited to 4 octaves or even less, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavichord
Anyway, let's hope they will make a 49 and/or a 61 keys later !

Not to BASH a manufacturer, but I think this is the same CME that withdrew their GPP-3 from the market a few years ago -- it had a bad reputation for quality/reliability.

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

aandrmusic wrote:

Not to BASH a manufacturer, but I think this is the same CME that withdrew their GPP-3 from the market a few years ago -- it had a bad reputation for quality/reliability.

If it's the same CME, then the rep may be deserved. I had a GPP-3 that went bad and their support failed in just about every way possible. They have some fine ideas -- the gpp3 was one -- but they stumbled badly in the execution.

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

doug wrote:
aandrmusic wrote:

Not to BASH a manufacturer, but I think this is the same CME that withdrew their GPP-3 from the market a few years ago -- it had a bad reputation for quality/reliability.

If it's the same CME, then the rep may be deserved. I had a GPP-3 that went bad and their support failed in just about every way possible. They have some fine ideas -- the gpp3 was one -- but they stumbled badly in the execution.

Yeah I had one of their "Ultimate MIDI Master Keyboards" for a while (UF7, I think?) and it was worse crap than a Behringer!

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

m.tarenskeen wrote:

Sure, a lot has improved since 1986. But the MIDI standard hasn't changed. A MIDI interface is still a serial interface with a 31250 bits/seconds baudrate. One note-on message takes around one millisecond, a 6 note chord 6 milliseconds (well, actuallly less due to the midi running status trick), and then you don't even use your polyphonic aftertouch yet.

Yes but events these days can be timestamped then transmitted over Ethernet or USB2 or 3, and then reassembled at the other end by your 3 gigahertz Intel CPU-driven DAW. They are no longer physically limited to being pumped down a mic-cable with some 5-pin DIN plugs soldered on the end, and read in real time by a UART talking to a 3.5MHz Zilog Z80 microprocessor.

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

m.tarenskeen wrote:

Sure, a lot has improved since 1986. But the MIDI standard hasn't changed. A MIDI interface is still a serial interface with a 31250 bits/seconds baudrate. One note-on message takes around one millisecond, a 6 note chord 6 milliseconds (well, actuallly less due to the midi running status trick), and then you don't even use your polyphonic aftertouch yet.

The problem wasn't the MIDI Standard, it was the microprocessor of the receiving keyboard. If I recall, the MemoryMoog was particularly prone to this. Modern keyboards have no problem handling PolyAT. I have a VAX77, and before that a Kurzweil MIDIBoard, and I have never had any synth "choke" on PolyAT going back thru the 90's.

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

m.tarenskeen wrote:

But what in your opinions is the best keyboard controller in terms of the best possible compromise between having AfterTouch and good weight/balance/touch/feel/responsiveness for playing Pianoteq's Piano sounds?

It is currently a Kickstarter project, but the makers of the (discontinued) VAX77 are coming out with a controller with hammer action, PolyAT, High-Resolution MIDI Velocity (especially useful with Pianoteq), release velocity, and choices of 4-6-8 octave keyboards (8 octaves = 96 keys!). Price of the 8 octave controller? $700!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/12...controller

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

and on a side note, "MIDI HD" is just around the corner - it seems !
http://www.midi.org/aboutus/news/hd.php

Re: Best keyboard with aftertouch

VAX77 was a beautiful, but right when they got it perfected they bailed.
I was feverish for an 88 note PAT from them, and can't wait to see the new kickstarter version.

But I couldn't wait around as my needs for 8 zones w/o having to use a PAT QuNexus and BCF 2000 with a PX-5S was making my gig tough.
Bought the Physis K4 and it is the very finest MIDI controller I ever had. Even steps up from the MC3000 Oberheim.
It has Virtual Instrument tables, aftertouch tables, velocity tables, 8 x MIDI Out, 8 x COntinuos CC control jacks.
I could go on, but if one needs good Piano action and high MIDI resolution 1st, then action that allows you to play for hours controlling PCs, hardware, MIDI controlled Lights and Mixer.

This Dog Will Hunt.

Last edited by teamsterjim (03-02-2015 05:37)
Hardware Analog, DSP, PhysMod. VSTi Romplers....